Clayton Law is a marketing and sales coach who teaches health and fitness experts how to get more online clients from Instagram. He has over 13 years of clinical and professional experience in the health industry and has helped over 130 experts get more online clients and make more money.
You can best reach Clayton through DMs on Instagram @clayton.moves
What’s covered in this episode?
- Motivational Interviewing in Health Coaching.
- How a “Person First, Client Second” approach can support growing a business, enhance client relationships, and promote better results for our clients.
- Strategies for sharing more of yourself as a leader in a field, establishing a personal brand, and building trust on social media.
- Why establishing a niche is important for both business growth and being a more passionate and fulfilled practitioner.
- Gaining experience through messy reps.
- Striking a balance between business and personal relationships, building community and fostering healthy work-life balance habits.
Caitlin: Welcome back to the Practice Human Podcast, everyone. I am your host, Caitlin Casella, and it is. Feeling very hot in New York City today as I’m recording this, but we had a couple of little hints of fall last week and it’s got me excited about the fall and excited about getting back to some running outdoors.
Those of you who have been following along with some of my running journey might know that last year around September and October, I started to do some running for the first time in my life. I started running after a period of time becoming interested in adding more jumping and impact and high intensity cardio intervals to my training.
It was something that my, then 40 year, 40 year old body really needed. And, I have to say after about a 15 year long career teaching yoga and then incorporating some strength training into that. I felt like the last missing piece for me was cardio conditioning at low and high intensities and adding back in some jumping.
And, some of you, who’ve been listening to the podcast have already heard a little bit about how this has served me and, just, Really feeling great in my body in ways that I never expected, and I’m pretty pleased with the springs that I have built and looking forward to getting back into some running outdoors as we move into the fall.
If this is something that is intriguing to you, maybe as you’ve aged or, or just kind of gotten distracted with other life things over the last several decades, perhaps, and realize that you have either lost the ability or lost interest or haven’t had any type of impact or jumping type training in your, movement repertoire, I am offering a second online cohort of my course, Relearn How to Jump, Introduction to Impact Loading.
So this course is for anybody interested in incorporating more power and speed training into your practice. We start at the very beginning. We will not be jumping the whole time. We will gradually build up the conditioning that’s required to introduce impact in a really safe and sustainable way. And if you’re looking for something that is just kind of going to add some vibrancy and a little bit of robustness to your practice, you can join me for another cohort of Relearn How to Jump.
We’re starting up with a new program on September 18th. It’s gonna be live on Monday evenings, but you’ll have access to replays of those live classes for a year, after the program ends and there is an early deadline to sign up. So I just wanted to let you all know about that now. It is timely. If you sign up before Thursday, September 14th and use the code Jump 40 at checkout.
You can save $40 off of the price for the program. you can find out a little bit more at practicehuman.com/event/jump or if you follow me on Instagram at Practice Human, go to my bio links. There’s a link there at the very top for relearn how to jump, and I had so much fun teaching this in the spring.
I think it helped a lot of, a lot of people who were interested in running or beginning running or coming back to running after a period of time off, kind of find some, some capacity for that to introduce that sort of loading to the body safely. in the spring. And I know the fall is also a popular time for people to get out there and, kind of get, get moving outdoors, whatever that means to you.
But if it’s something that will include a little bit of skipping, hopping, jumping, or impact, I highly recommend this program as a way to get started. and if you don’t have any aspirations whatsoever to start running. It’s really not just for that. It’s the way to add just a little bit more stimulus and variety to your training can really help with building speed and power, which we know to be important with aging for maintaining independence, help with balance and coordination and agility.
It will help you just feel more energized and have some tools that you can use to incorporate more energizing, uplifting, higher intensity cardiovascular training and conditioning just into your normal workouts if you’re just kind of sprinkling that in, in between weight lifting sessions, or however you’re going to use it.
It is definitely something that brings up the level of vitality in the system. I have to say I can attest to that and I am personally feeling. quite good from all this work that I’ve been doing over the last couple of years. So I hope you’ll consider joining me. And again, you can go to PracticeHuman.
com slash event slash jump, or go to the top of my bio links at, in my Instagram account at PracticeHuman. And I’m available via email as well. If you have any questions for me or just want to reach out and say hi, you can reach me at hello at PracticeHuman. com. So I hope to see you online and relearn how to jump this fall.
And now on to my interview today. I had the pleasure of sitting down and speaking with Clayton Law. I originally met Clayton through Instagram. He’s one of those people who I feel like I know and have known for many years even though we have never met in person and it was lovely to be able to have this opportunity through the podcast format to have a longer conversation with Clayton.
He has so much wealth of information to share from his background in movement, and in teaching and coaching and the fitness industry. And then also for sales and marketing. So Clayton Law is a marketing and sales coach. He teaches health and fitness experts how to get more online clients from Instagram.
He has over 13 years of clinical and professional experience in the health industry and has helped over 130 experts get more online clients and make. more money. Clayton is a husband and father and extremely passionate about nature, hiking, trail running, climbing, exploring national parks. It was nice to catch up with Clayton and I want to thank Clayton for coming on to the podcast.
It was just a really delightful conversation and I hope you all enjoy it. If you want to reach Clayton, the best way to reach him is to DM him on Instagram. He is at Clayton dot moves on Instagram. He responds to all of his messages in his DM. It’s how I talk to him on a regular basis, how I got him to come on the podcast.
so he’s super, super responsive there and loves questions and is a very, very approachable person to reach out to. So, please reach out to him on Instagram at Clayton dot moves or follow him there for really great tips on Instagram, business and marketing. He also has one on one coaching services, services available to help you reach your goals if that’s something you’re looking for.
And as we’ll discuss on the episode, he also offers some group cohorts throughout the year to get some help with marketing. And I hope you learn some good tools for… Sharing your voice, sharing what you do in a social media community that is, I find Clayton makes it like a very positive kind of space and a space that I certainly want to spend time.
So I hope you enjoy the interview with Clayton Law.
Today I am chatting with Clayton. Clayton Law, and I’m really excited to have you here, Clayton, because It’s funny, like getting on a call to have a longer conversation with you, because I feel like I’ve been in a conversation with you for a couple of years, yes, since we’ve known each other through Instagram.
I think we were in some of the same circles with some Instagram marketing coaching, some people that we were learning from and started, started into the world of random talking videos around the same time. And I mean, I’ll speak for myself, but I came to know that strategy of Talking and showing my face and letting people hear my voice on social media as a really kind of potent way for me to get over a lot of hang ups that I had in connecting with people.
And also, I know it’s such a powerful way to build trust as a business owner and for business marketing. So I’m sure we’ll get into a little bit of the ins and outs of that and just kind of how we present ourselves in a social media space as leaders and as business owners. But I also connect with you because you come from a world of, I think, pretty diverse and interdisciplinary movement backgrounds.
I know I’ve seen that you’ve done some. yoga and some mobility coaching. I think you were kind of working mostly in the mobility coaching sphere when I came to know you on social media and now you’ve shifted into business marketing coaching for people in fitness and wellness and in this kind of movement world that we’re a part of on social media.
So, I am excited to hear a little bit about your transition or your evolution from, from going from coaching and teaching. into business coaching, what you’re doing now, and, any, any illumining kind of crossovers or things that moved you from one thing to the next along the way. I’ll just let you jump in and talk a little bit about your background and what you, what led you to do what you’re doing now.
Clayton: Oh, and I’m super excited to be here. Yeah, it brings me a lot of joy to have these types of conversations because, as you said, you know, I come from the movement world. it’s near and dear to my heart. It’s helped my body and changed my life in so many ways. And then that’s how I really felt compelled to share the things that I learned.
and then once I started studying marketing and selling and creating content more and then really investing much more in it, I realized like, Oh my gosh, there’s all these things that I had no idea about. I started learning those things and then I felt a calling to share it with my people and share it with all the people that are out there creating amazing resources and being amazing coaches and trainers and practitioners, but they just like it.
Not great at marketing. And so like, right, I feel this, this like, almost the responsibility to help bring those people along and to educate them and to help them get out of their own way to like so much of the stuff. And can I swear on this podcast? Do I get it? Yeah. Okay. Just want to check it, like, I love the shit.
And like, when I get excited, I sometimes sweat. So sorry in advance for that. No problem. But yeah, yeah. So if you’d like, I can take you back to How I started, kind of give you a background story, quick elevator pitch and some things that you might not know about me and your audience. Do you want me to run through that?
Caitlin: Yeah. Because my audience might, kind of know you peripherally, but also I don’t know everything about your background or even what brought you into like teaching mobility and teaching movement. So yeah. Have at it. All right. So I was
Clayton: born on a Thursday. It was right now. So, anyways, way back, in high school, like I was like anyone else, you know, I was getting a lot of injuries from sports and stuff.
so I was a swimmer and a soccer player, and then that’s how I first got introduced to physical therapy. And I was like, Oh man, this could be a career. Awesome. So, that’s when I went to Pitt, and I got into the exercise science program. I was waitlisted for the rehab science program because my chemistry grades weren’t great, which is unfortunate.
So I was like, you know what, exercise science, exercise physiology, that, that’s, you know, pretty tangential. And I know that’s still a pathway to get to PT school. So, I got into exercise, physiology. And I just took off, like I, my, my grades were like meh in undergrad cause I was taking a lot of, you know, classes that I just wasn’t passionate about.
But once I got into like human physiology and exercise physiology and studying kidney function and studying like, you know, like all these different structures in the body and how, you know, aerobic activity and strength like impacts it and all this stuff, I just got so excited and so nerdy. And like, I just started getting like top grades in the class, you know, had a 4.
0, throughout that whole program. and then I was like, all right, time to go to PT school applied and I got waitlisted every single place. And the, the, the reason being was like, your chemistry two grades are shitty. And I was like, well, that’s unfortunate because I had two years of clinical experience in a hospital working inpatient orthopedic, you know, oncology units.
I had like an obscene amount of hours, like working directly with physical therapists and occupational therapists. So like, it was very disheartening. AC minus on a transcript, like holding them back from allowing me. So like, I was very. It was definitely a crossroads. I was disheartened.
I felt like a failure. I felt frustrated. I was angry. I was upset. And so it was like a very, you know, challenging road for me. And then I retook chemistry, again, like I took it three times. I think chem two, for whatever reason, my brain just couldn’t comprehend the abstractness of chem two. So, anyone out there trying to get into PT school, just know you’re not alone.
Chemistry is rough. Yeah, yeah. And then, so, anyway, someone was like, Well, why don’t you consider the Exercise Physiology Master’s program? And I was like, Okay, cool. never really thought of that. and I looked into it. It looked like it was more of the stuff that I was passionate about. So, yeah, why not?
and one of my mentors, who was one of my advisors there, he was like, Hey, you should look into an assistantship. So… I was actually able to because I was a swimmer and he pushed me to get what was called an aquatics minor Which is kind of fun to have on my transcript. Cool. Yeah, right. So then basically I was able to teach lifeguarding. I was able to teach swimming classes and personal training classes.
And I also taught two sessions of CPR and first aid, for first responders. And so I taught all of that in graduate school and they paid for it. And I was like, cool, that’s nice. Because I don’t have to take out more loans. and so then I was like, you know, it’s still considering the PT route, but then I was actually looking for an internship and I discovered health coaching.
and so, there’s a big insurance company in Pittsburgh and, you know, I’ve been working for them for 12 years now. And, Yeah, which is kind of crazy to say out loud. I got a congratulations email from them the other day where it’s like, Hey, 12 years. And I was like, Well, that’s a time warp. And
Caitlin: I’m flying.
Yeah, I’ve been there so
Clayton: many things wild. But the thing that I saw time and time again, so if we rewind, you know, I’m in clinical inpatient, right? I would see these people and, you know, a big part of this too, is like the first five seconds of you walking into a patient’s room or a patient coming into your practice or, you know, any interaction, right?
First date, whatever it is, you know, the first five seconds makes a big difference. And like, you know, me, you’ve seen me, like, I’m just like a ball of positivity and like, you know, just, I am who I am. And I just leaned into that. Right. So you’re, you’re seeing someone at their lowest, right? They just had surgery.
They’re probably in a lot of pain. Their hair is all messed up. They’re frustrated. Right. and you’re coming in and you bringing that presence into that room is such a big thing and I remember just really trying to prioritize that and really trying to treat them as a human, you know, because I feel like in some senses, very dehumanized in this situation.
So, and I would, I would go there and the frustrating thing about inpatient is that like, okay, this is what insurance billed for you to, to treat. And so like, you have to just go through these, like. really minuscule exercises and then you’re out in like 12 minutes, right? Where, you know, what I was, you know, as a rehab aid, like, you know, I’m just there kind of basically a glorified, like, you know, lifter, you know, and making sure and spotting and stuff like that.
But, I, just tried to like, Really peer into like how they were thinking about their injury or their their surgery or you know They’re just really trying to impact their mindset because like the mind Whether you’re trying to like grow your online business or whether you’re trying to rehab your hip like it’s all the same like you know The the soil that is your mind if it’s if it’s not Like, properly kind of, what’s that, tilling?
Is that the, the? It’s a good word for it. I think it is. The soil of the mind. My mom makes fun of me. I make up words all the time. So, like, I’m just like, yeah, that’s a word. Yeah, that’s it. But, yeah, so, I just, you know, felt kind of frustrated because there were so many things I wanted to help these patients with.
But, like, you could only just really help them with what was… Prescribed. So anyways, and then outpatients, a different story, like you can, you can make a lot more of an impact there. And then, like, you know, as I’m sure you’re, you’re seeing, like, if you’re doing like private practice or a cash based or, you know, however, you know, whatever type of hybrid model people are doing, you can see the opportunity for even more impact and furthering your reach as a, as a clinician.
But, so yeah, that’s when I got into health coaching. And so for health coaching, I basically for the past 12 years have talked with people on the phone and helped them with quitting smoking with weight loss. We have a stress management program. We focus on sleep. We talk about mindfulness, nutrition, and physical activity.
So all the stuff that I’ve learned in grad school and in my graduate paper, I wrote about motivational interviewing, which is kind of tangential to cognitive behavioral therapy. And so it’s a, it’s a. Client centered way to like help people help themselves essentially. And it’s just a way of communication.
So, in doing so, I just really kind of fell in love with health coaching and helping people. and so I like from an early on, like I’ve just been obsessed with everything, health and fitness, and I’ve just been in this world for so long. And so then fast forward to how I got into mobility training.
I, with just working a desk job out of grad school, like I started having old injuries pop up and like. Pretty shitty symptoms and stuff. So I had a herniated disc way back when, but I was starting to get back issues again, not from an acute onset or anything. It was just like, just kind of came up.
And so like sciatic nerve pain, numbness, pain down the leg, you know, just all these different things. And so that really woke me up to like, Hey, I’m in my 20s here. I shouldn’t be feeling like this. and so I took it upon myself to really start to research, like, what can I do to empower myself to actually start to heal?
and so that’s, I got into yoga and like my girlfriend at the time, now my wife is also into yoga. So we do a lot of fun acro yoga and stuff like that. and yoga challenges and on Instagram and stuff. But, with that, like yoga was a piece of the equation, but like, I still felt like there was more.
And so I stumbled upon Joe Miller’s work, yoga tune up, and took her certification. And again, like the whole reason I took these certifications, I had zero intention of teaching this stuff. Like. and that might sound odd, but like, I selfishly just wanted to solve my issues and just like get out of pain and just live and exist better in my body.
so that’s why, and I love the nerd out. So you give me a good PowerPoint and a good weekend, you know, training, I’m like, I’m, I’m excited. So the same. Yep. Yep. And I’m sure all your listeners are as well. And so, So that’s the thing. I just like, you know, I enjoyed it. It gave me dopamine, but I love learning.
I love PowerPoints. And then also by product I could start feeling better than awesome. and then, yoga tune up work was really cool and it was a lot more than I was expecting. I thought it was just a lot of rolling, but there was a lot of really cool open closed chain kind of stuff and some other cool strength based stuff.
So I was really impressed with that. and then I started like, you know, on Instagram started seeing more FRC stuff. And then like anyone, they probably just try and imitate what they see and then Figure it out. And I realized I was just scratching the surface. So actually when I was out in, cause the train was out in Pasadena, so I was out there and then, you know, I sought out one of the FRC people that I had been following for a while and I was like, Hey, can we do a one on one?
He’s like, yeah, sure. So I got to do a one on one session with them. and it was very. eye opening and start connecting a lot of the dots. And I was like, you know what? I might just do the, the, the training and just like really, really dive deep and really understand it. So I met some really cool people.
just, you know, a really great community, lots of nerds, lots of really passionate, caring humans. and so then, with that, I was like, you know what? I think I want to take the Kinstretch cert. Well, actually before that it was, um. I started feeling actually a lot better and then I started rock climbing, and so I really thought rock climbing was off the table for me with just all my back issues and all these things.
But, once I started getting more resilient, I was just like, wow, this is awesome. Like, let me start doing things that are fun to me. And so it really started to open up my mind and like how resilient the human body can be and how dynamic it can be. So then, I was just posting a lot of likes. And a lot of climbing stuff.
And then there was a new climbing gym opening up and they were like, Hey, do you want to teach yoga-ish mobility classes here at the climbing gym? And I was like, do I? Yes. So, I started doing that. And yeah. And then six years went by and I taught kin stretch classes there for, for six years. so I went through the kin stretch cert and then all of the, the reason why I kind of hopped online while I was, I was, you know, still sharing stuff online, but not really promoting anything.
And so then after class, like people would be like, Hey, like, what was that routine? Or what were cars like, Hey, how do I do that shoulder thing? And I was like, and I didn’t mind talking about it, but I found myself repeating myself again and again and again and again, I was like, let me just film a video so you can like have it and refer back to it.
So I did that. and then just gave him the link and he’s like, I watched this like, like 10 times, something absurd. And I was like, this is so helpful. Like, and I hope, you know, like someone would, people would probably pay you for this. And I was like, hokay. So I’m like, just kind of researched, like, Hey, how do I start like a membership and, you know, figured out some way to.
Make it work and it was janky and it didn’t work at first and then it kind of worked and but anyways I just put a ten dollar price tag on it and just started filming videos and just called it the mobility membership and People from all over the world just started signing up and you know, it’s just it was just a crazy thing and it was just kind of like a baptism by fire, um in terms of learning how to and there are a lot of things that I kind of learned intuitively.
Like I love studying pretty much everything if I’m passionate about it. So I started studying marketing, like, you know, like Seth Godin’s, you know, some other people that I look up to on Instagram and stuff. And, you know, I was piecing things together and, but I, but it always kind of felt like ass backwards.
Like I was just like, you know, kind of figuring it out. and then, fast forward to how I really got into, like. The consulting and the coaching for, for business stuff and marketing and sales, which I’m leading into that title a lot more now, is, had a friend, local in Pittsburgh. He’s a jiu jitsu guy, runner guy, trainer, awesome human being.
And he was like, Hey dude, can you help me with marketing and like social media stuff? I have no idea what I’m doing. And I was like, yeah. And he’s like, I’ll pay you 800. Like, you know, I’d love to work with you. And I was like. Sold. Okay, let’s do it. and that’s really how my coaching began, in that space.
So since then I’ve done nine group coaching rounds. I’ve had over a hundred and I think 30 clients that I’ve worked with in that capacity in a group setting and a one on one setting. And it’s just, it’s been incredible. and I’ve learned so much, and really like it through studying, reading books, listening to podcasts, studying people, and just trying to experiment and seeing things that I’ve used, that have gotten me results and got my client results. and then that actually fast forwards me to January, of this year, 2023, I actually hired my first coach, like bit the bullet. I saw some of her content. I was like, you know what, for whatever reason this girl’s voice and messages are reverberating in my brain.
Like, I feel like I just need to like. You know, take it for a spin. Right. And it was the most money I’d spent on coaching ever. you know, I’d, I’d spend like, you know, 300 here, 500 there for like a program and just gone through the course material, but like never working with a coach directly. So I signed up for her group coaching program, went through that three month program, and got incredible results.
And I was like, can I please throw it, keep throwing money at you to like, have you continue to help me? And she’s like, yeah, sure. So we worked together for another four months. I think after January, I’m going to start working with her again for another like three to six months. But anyways, best decision I’ve ever, ever, ever, ever made because I didn’t know what I didn’t know.
and I had blind spots and I had things that I was doing. Like she, like she said, you know what, Clayton, like you’re doing most of the things like 90 percent right. You’re just either not doing them enough or consistently, or you just don’t have the systems in place. Like. Keep doing this stuff. And so I was like, Oh my gosh.
And so it was nothing really profound. It was just like a shift and consistency and then doubling down on the things that really matter and ignoring the things that are just ego metrics. And it changed everything for me. Like just bananas. Like, I mean, and the thing was too, like, I really hesitated to ever talk about money stuff.
And I really hesitated to ever like fully lean into the marketing and sales title. cause it just felt like, cause I see so many people and that’s the thing, right. You see so many people on Instagram who are just doing marketing and sales like really poorly, like just really poor Outreach and really poor connection and like pitching you right away and all this stuff that is just like the wrong way to do It but you think in your mind that that defines like what marketing and sales is and so like I don’t want to be Salesy and it’s like no you just don’t want to be like that kind of salesy like there’s a way to do that’s very and so yeah, that that’s just kind of, it was very big catalyst for me and I.
Like halfway through the year doubled the amount of revenue I made in all of the years previously, like, and it was only June and I was like, holy shit, like this is, this is nuts. And it wasn’t anything crazy. It wasn’t anything profound. It was just doubling down on things that really worked. And depending on how much into the weeds you want to get into this program or this program, this, this podcast here, I’m, I’m happy to spill any, any kind of beans or strategy that, that, you know, you’re interested in.
Caitlin: Yeah. Oh, thank you for all the background. I, there’s a lot there that I didn’t know about. I figured in your background. I figured. Yeah. That’s really awesome. I didn’t know that you’d worked in inpatient hospitals and applied to PT school and, so thank you for sharing all that, Clayton. That’s really cool.
Sure. and again, like I was just saying before I hit record, a big piece of what this podcast is about or what I aim to do with my curation of this podcast is, Bring together multiple disciplines or people with backgrounds in many disciplines have had some kind of evolution through them and just kind of highlight the crossovers and all like how you do.
Anything is how you do everything, right? And all these things, that how you present yourself as a business owner, an entrepreneur, how you present yourself with marketing is the same as the way you help your clients. and I think it’s, it’s really just all. I love that you brought up getting a one on one coach for yourself.
This is something that I’ve been thinking about a lot. I just started working with a personal trainer and I’m learning so much from her, like so much on so many levels working one on one. And I really believe that anybody that offers services one on one should also consume services one on one. What you get from that is worth so much more than helping you, it’s like you build out this other kind of branch of your skill sets, of observing and learning from another person how they coach you one on one. Yeah. To be better at coaching other people one on one. And so I think there’s a lot that could be said about that in any.
I don’t have any discipline or any craft, but I kind of like over the years have developed this, this thought, this like, how could anyone offer services one on one without having ever experienced paying for services one on one for themselves, you know, like how could anybody miss that part? It’s huge.
Clayton: It really is. It’s just eye opening. It’s eye opening because like. You know, again, like I say, like, you don’t know what you don’t know. You have your blind spots, but like in, in the, if I put my health coaching hat on, you know, I work with a lot of, you know, like people who have a lot of high levels of health literacy, you know, like nurses and different, you know, practitioners and so like, you know, we’ll get on the call and it’s like, yeah, I know what I need to do.
And it’s like. Yeah, totally. Like if you want to lose weight, like it’s, it’s a two sided equation and you know, you want to make it sustainable and be a human being and not overly restrictive. But like, yeah, here’s the two levers you need to pull, you know, but what’s keeping you from doing that? Like what, what do you, what do you feel like is getting in the way?
Right? So like as, as a really good coach, as a really good practitioner, you, it’s your job to help elicit and pull these things out of them and ideally have them solving their own mind. problems, you know, and you provide the container to do that. So there’s this, you know, asking versus giving advice.
So like, if I see something, I’m like, Oh, you know what you got to do? You got to do X, Y, and Z. Right. So whether it’s like creating content or losing weight or like mobility training. Right. But if I’m just like, Hey, it’s like, tell me about your hip. Like, what do you know about your hip? You know, like, Hey, like, what do you like, what do you, and like, get them to tell me.
And so through that, you’re, you’re helping establish autonomy and you’re also like, From a practitioner standpoint, you’re getting more information, more history, more context to then prescribe better suggestions. And like, okay, so based on what you’re saying there. And you said you tried this, right? Yeah.
Okay. Gotcha. And it was like this for you. Got it. How do you feel about this? How’s that sitting with you? Oh, I don’t know. I’ve never considered that. Okay, cool. Well, would you want me to explain that in more detail? Yes, please. For sure. Right. So every step of the way it’s, it’s permission based. you’re, you’re involving them in, you’re not just like, you know, shaking your finger and educating them to death.
Like it’s, it’s very collaborative. And that’s, I found that like when you said like how you do anything, it’s how you do everything. Like I learned so much like health coaching. It’s just like sales. It’s just like marketing. It’s just like coaching. It’s all the same and that’s really fun. So. Yeah,
Caitlin: And it’s, and for me as a physical therapist, it is continuous.
It’s like, like you can’t even say where one ends and the other begins developing a relationship with a patient, especially for me in a cash based clinic, the conversations we have about their goals and what’s going to get them there and how long is it realistically going to take is a simultaneous conversation about how much you will expect to invest.
In your sessions, in time and in money. and it’s like, like, are we on the same page here in terms of, you know, what you’re motivated and willing to do? What’s most meaningful to you? How do we get there? How can we like find that path together in a way that like you said, use the word sustainable, like a way that is like sustainable financially in terms of the time commitment, in terms of like tracking your progress so that you can stay motivated and know kind of what you need to go, what’s the most.
Crucial things to go after based on who you are and what you’re doing and what your goals are, and what your history is and all of those things. All the things, , it’s like, it’s all one conversation that is sales and marketing all wrapped up in patient care. Yep. one of the things that you shared recently, this leads me into exactly where I wanted to go next.
One of the things you shared recently on Instagram was this phrase person first. Client seconds, and I believe you were using that, in reference to, just relating, relatability, maybe building trust, like the person early on so that it is, it doesn’t feel. Kind of sleazy salesy. It just feels more like an open conversation about what you know, like what are your problems?
What do you need? What can I help you with? How can I best help you? And I just really love that phrase person first client second I think it could spill over into a lot of a lot of different areas of like teaching and client care and
Clayton: patient care totally, yeah happy to dive into that and one more thing I want to add is just like If you are looking at like, cause like two of the biggest levers that you can pull to grow your business and make it sustainable is client retention.
So like having a longer lifetime value of the client. So like, does the client just work with you for the 10 session bundle that they got? And then it’s like, see you later. Or are they doing just, just the three months of coaching and then, okay, see you later. If you’re not retaining those clients, then you have to work on that.
and I say that in a loving way, because like, it’s something that I realized, like I wasn’t doubling down on. And so, the one thing you have to think of is like, if there’s no roadmap, like it doesn’t have to be a literal roadmap. Like I do have a roadmap for my program, but, it could just be figurative speaking, like Dave, if people don’t know where they are.
And where are they going? If they can’t see a future with you, then like, there’s no point in them continuing to work with you. So it’s your job as a practitioner and in parentheses, also as the marketer, customer service, client retention, like all that stuff. You’re wearing all the hats. It’s your job to be able to illuminate the path that they’re on.
So I talk a lot about things like point A and point B, like, especially on sales calls, you know, and so that’s so important to know. and there’s two categories. There’s. Subjective and there’s objective, right? So subjective could be like, you know, like, how are your energy levels? How are, like, how’s your sleep or how’s, you know, this, you know, and then there’s objective measures where it’s like, Hey, like, you know, what’s your weight?
Like, what’s your, what’s your measurements or like, Hey, how, what was your runtime? Like if you’re a runner, like how, what was your 5k split? Did you have knee pain? Right. So you can have these kind of trackable self reported, you can put it in an RPE scale from a zero to 10. or you could just like, you know, be able to check in with them right on specific goals.
So the thing that I realized I wasn’t doing was I wasn’t doubling down enough on objective data, right? So when I was helping my clients, like over the, you know, four years of doing this type of business coaching and marketing sales work and how it’s evolved over the years, I realized I was really shying away.
You know, I talked about the money. I was shying away from talking about that because I didn’t want to be that internet bro guy. I’d like, get 10 K in three days. And just, you know, it just. That, that just didn’t feel like me, but I realized I was shying away from talking about the elephant in the room.
Like that’s what people are looking for. Like they’re trying to get more clients. They’re trying to get more money. So like, if you’re not talking about it or, or tracking it, then how am I knowing if my coaching is helpful? Right. Because that’s the thing I was, I was hesitant to raise my prices because that was one thing my coach was like, you need to double your prices.
And I was like, okay. And she’s like, wait, you need to double them again. I was like, okay, hold on. So, but, It was, I wasn’t asking about those like, Hey, like how many clients you have? What’s your cash flow per month? Like, how many clients are you trying to get? Like, what, what’s all the ways people can pay you?
And so in doing so, I was all subjective. So it was like, Oh, Clayton, you were so helpful. We’re like, Oh, Clayton, this was great working with you. But I had really nothing to show for it as opposed to real hard data. and so. Once I started really looking at that and like where your attention goes, energy flows, where you’re able to actually measure what you’re trying to, to improve, then you can really see a lot of progress on that.
So, and that applies not only to like metrics, but just like, you know, like you figure out how you’re measuring your client success. Right. And that that’s part of the thing is like list out every single thing that you can do. So like if I have a health coaching client, you know, and she’s working with like, Got my like, you know, issues like autoimmune issues.
I’m like, okay, what are all the things subjective or objective that you need to track for your client progress? And she’s like, well, you know, if I’m working with someone like IBS or Crohn’s, it’s like, Hey, how many bowel movements did you have today? Right? So that’s a good leading metric, right? So if you go from 10 bowel movements a day down to three, That’s a huge fucking win, right?
That’s amazing, right? So, she would, she would track things like that. sleep, stress levels, you know, like all these different things, like anything that you could possibly track that would improve your client’s outcomes, you’d want to kind of get a baseline, and track as you go. So for my health coaching client that I have, like, All of those aren’t going to like, if someone doesn’t have Crohn’s and they just have like, you know, you know, like type two diabetes, like they’re probably not going to need to track their bowel movements.
Right. so you can get a master list and then you can say like, okay, so based on what your goals are, where you’re at, I think if we track these five things, I think that’ll give us the best return of investment of your time. And we can also see how the thing’s progressing for you. so I think that’s a big thing.
So like, if you’re in the movement space, like, you know, movement screenings, baselines, FRAs, you know. Snapshots, before and afters, running times, lifting PR, self reported pain with an activity, like whatever it is, all of those things, like you need to get super crystal clear on the baseline and the outcomes.
Cause that’s going to help again, illuminate the roadmap and the path that they’re on. and get you better client retention and also give you way, way better marketing.
Caitlin: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, especially in the PT space and physical therapy, so many people who drop off from physical therapy report that like the main reasons are like, it wasn’t clear how much longer I would have to keep going or how much longer I would need to keep doing this or like just no.
No clear roadmap laid out in terms of like, what’s next and what, what that means and then what that milestone kind of brings you to the next thing. And, you know, and like, I think there’s just a lot of it comes down to a lack of communication or like maybe on the practitioner’s part, just not realizing how important that type of communication
Caitlin: Totally and how much sometimes people need level like like to your point about the one on one coaching and and somebody else seeing your blind spots I can’t tell you how many times I I need to kind of reflect back to a patient how much progress they made because it’s So gradual and incremental That sometimes they feel like they’ve kind of plateaued or gotten stuck when they haven’t.
And when you have those objective measures, you can kind of like say when, when we did this six weeks ago, you couldn’t tolerate it because of the pain. And now look at you’re doing it. You don’t feel anything at all. Like that’s a change. And sometimes, sometimes you can’t appreciate those changes as well.
Yourself as when you have someone else is kind of like seeing you regularly reflecting that back to you. And I think that’s super
Clayton: powerful. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s and again, if you’re in the physical therapy space or personal trainer, a cool question to ask is like, what is a struggle for you right now?
Right. Because again, like that might, you know, I mean, cause like there’s the obvious things where it’s like, Oh, I can’t do CrossFit or I can’t do this or, but like, like having some patients that are just like, you know, I can’t put my shoes on like my, my, you know, and so like, wow, like you crossed your leg and externally rotated your hip and put your shoe on.
Caitlin: Like, that’s huge. And I’m like, Oh wow. Like you just did it and they’ll do it without realizing they did. And they’d be like, Oh yeah. Oh, I didn’t realize I did it. Right. One of the questions on my intake form is, Fill in the blank. I’ll know, I’ll know I’m better when I can blank without X, Y, Z, or when I can blank and feel like this.
and I ask people that early on just because I’m like, I need a little objective marker here. Like, like. and make them get specific about it, right? I will know I’m better when I can do this exact thing without feeling this exact thing that I feel every time I do it right now. You know, things like that are just super helpful to have a snapshot of in the beginning.
So you can talk about it later.
Clayton: One thing I want to kind of interject here, cause I think it’s the thing I see time and time and time and time again, it’s a, it’s like the very first thing I have to work on with my clients. and then I’ll, I’ll definitely get into the phrase, like person first, client second.
Cause like, that’s, that’s in my brain here. I definitely want to get into that, but the main thing is pricing. and again, this is not just like making more money to make more money. Right? Like if you’re running a business, like cashflow is the oxygen to your business, right? So if you don’t have cash flow going like you’re. It’s just not, you’re going to be stressed out and it’s just not going to work as well.
so, the thing that I look at with people, and again, different pricing structures, different practices, different ways people do things. and I work with people from all over the world and sometimes it doesn’t make sense to do it this way. But, Charging per session or per hour, in my opinion, is one of the biggest mistakes people can make.
and I’ll explain it here. So, when you list your pricing as like, you know, 100 a session or, you know, 100 for an hour or like whatever it is, you, you’re, you’re basically conditioning your audience and potential clients to only see the value in that hour. Right. and so when you do that, you’re always gonna be pigeonholed into trading your time for money in that way.
Right. And a lot of people would be like, Oh, get passive income. Like, there’s no, there’s no such thing as passive income. Like, you’re always gonna have to put work into it. But like, you can leverage your work with being able to better communicate your value to potential clients. Right. So, let me explain this a little bit more.
So if you like I used to, Do you like a session bundle? So it’d be like this many, like this cost per session. So like a six session bundle or 10 session bundle. And I thought that was good because it’s like, okay, like I’m, I’m now getting this like a larger chunk of change and they’re paying it over a couple of months and stuff like that.
But like, it was still like that and also had client drop off where it’s like, I had people would buy six sessions and I’m like, Yo, like you got sessions left. Like whenever you want, like I was in a rush, but like. You paid for these, like, please use them. And there was just no, there was no container. Like when you talked about like, Hey, how long can I expect to work on this?
You know, rehabbing my knee. Right. So. So I realized that the the the punch pass or the 10 session, but it just wasn’t working for me And I I see it not working for a lot of other people because then people paid for it But then like oh I got vacation I got this and all life is hectic and it’s just they just kind of fizzle out So what I prefer to do now is being like, hey, we’ll work together for three months or six months Most people do three months and then they we get a groove and then we we keep going from there and so with that you get a you get a commitment you get a container.
There’s a start and an end date. There’s more to opt in if you’d like, but it’s just way more cohesive. and so then when you do that, now you’re going, okay, so for the three months, it’s going to be this total price. And it’s at this price per month. And with this, you get a one on one session every week, you get.
This, you have access to me on voice memos, text messages, homing pigeon, SOS. I can answer questions for you. I can make training for you. And also you get lifetime access to my online course, which I’m constantly adding to, like people who have paid me money, like, you know, months and months ago or years ago, like they get email updates saying like, Hey, like new training in the portal.
And I’m like, Oh, cool. I guess I do have lifetime access to this. So, so now. Look at the value. I’m not just being like, Hey, it’s this one on one. So it’s like the one on one, the coaching support, the email check in, the voice member support. Like there’s so much fucking support in my programs that like I make it feel like you can’t fall between the cracks.
And if you’re stuck, you talk to me, you let me know, and then I can help you move forward. Right. So now what can you charge? Way more, right? like, yeah. And so every single one of them, like you listening to this podcast, can do that. You just need to be able to create the value stack, which is just listening out.
You get this by attaching a body to it. You get this, attach a value to it. You get this, this, this, and this. And at the end, you’re being like, and it’s this much. And it comes out to this per month. How does that sound to you? Right? So. That is like, I just had a client call before this podcast. And he landed a client, it was 250 a month.
And I’ve already talked to him about raising his prices. But, he was like, he went through the whole value stack and the guy was like. Wow. So I get all of this for that price. Yeah, I’m in, let’s go, you know? And so, but again, if he just would have gone into, Hey, it’s $250 a month, people would be like, I don’t know.
Cause like you didn’t do a good job communicating the value. So, that’s just a quick plug on that. So if you wanted to expand on it before we go into person first client second, I’m down, but I just wanted to interject that because that’s one of the biggest things I see time and time again, that people really resist doing.
Caitlin: No, I like that. I think, yeah, I agree with that. Having a like clear timeline for working together is so helpful and helps and can help you as a coach or trainer, like kind of pace, pace things out in a way that, That’s again, that’s something that’s like a really a struggle in physical therapy is, especially in, I have worked in like insurance based physical therapy, where it’s like, you don’t even know how many sessions you’re going to have with someone or how much time you’re going to have with someone until they’re just like cut off.
So like there’s. It’s really hard. Like there’s almost no way to plan over a span of time, to get somebody to their goals. But, especially if, if, you know, it’s, it’s, so it’s like, it’s a different session base versus time period base. I love that. Just that change in mindset that it’s a three month period or it’s a six month period.
I think that I can do a lot of different things to motivate for sustainability like spacing things out and doing things in a way that’s like, Progressive or kind of even, even effort over time. and I think a lot of the talk with kind of marketing and social media with content development, it’s just kind of about, you know, even effort over time, like consistency over time.
And that’s really big with anything like. with physical adaptation to consistent effort even over time, you know, And so I think having that mindset of it being time length of time based is really nice Yeah, people can
Clayton: a lot of ways people can wrap their wrap their mind around a little bit more and you know like i’m so happy to hear you have a cash based practice too because like You know working in insurance and like all of the the people I was working with in health coaching, you know was uh They weren’t paying a dime.
It was completely free. So like, they had zero skin in the game. So there’s a whole heck of a lot of drop off. I mean like, I have had people that were just like, absolutely crushed it and completely changed their lives forever. But they were very intrinsically motivated, you know. They were, they had a big light bulb moment or a big like, scare moment or, you know.
But like, When people pay they pay attention and so like, you know, just in in raising your prices and doing the monthly stuff Like you you get more committed people because they’re they’re ready to commit and if people are saying like you know, it’s just too expensive for me or I can’t swing it now.
Just be like, that’s okay. No worries. And then just keep showing up, you know, cause like I’ve had people that, like I’ve been on a sales call with or they DM me and like, you know, I’m going to sign up for your program. Like, cool. Like, you want to hop on a call? Let me know if you have any questions, let me know.
and then, you know, then they wouldn’t or like, you know, I was on a call with someone, she’s, She’s a yoga teacher, a mobility specialist, and also does teacher trainings. And so she’s launching her teacher training and the timeline didn’t work for her back then. And she was like, Hey, I’m going to spend, I have a budget, but I need to pay a film crew like 5,000 to do this and I can’t afford that and your program.
So I was just like, Oh, you probably don’t need to spend 5, 000 on my film. But I was like, that was a whole nother conversation. But, anyway, she ended up signing up. Next round. and so Right. A no now doesn’t mean a no forever. And I think that Right. That’s important.
Caitlin: Or it might be that it’s a no from that person, but then they’ll send you somebody else.
Yeah. I experience that a lot. Whoa. Right. Like there’s somebody, the timing or it’s not the right fit or it doesn’t work out. Mm-hmm. But then they, like a couple months later, refer someone else over to me. Yeah. . So I’m like, okay, well, Like good connection there. Anyway, I mean, yeah, yeah. You never know. I mean, I feel like a lot of times, some of our biggest supporters in business are the people who aren’t always like there.
Like purchasing, buying things, but are there sending other people our way, you know, so people support in different ways, right? But yeah, yeah, totally.
Clayton: All those ways. I have this guy, his name is Linus. Shout out to Linus if you’re hearing this. Yeah, I think he’s from Oh, shit, man. Sorry. I can’t. It might be Finland or Sweden or like somewhere really cool that I want to visit someday.
And we’ll go take a nice bath. But anyways, I digress here. But again, that’s kind of alluding into, you know, person first client second, but he had been a part of my mobility membership, which it still exists, but I’m just not marketing it. And it’s, he’s, he’s, he sent me this message the other day that kind of like, you know, hit me in the fields.
He’s like, Hey, man, like, I really want to work with you for like figuring out and like honing in like what my mission is and growing my business and Doing my thing like he’s really passionate about what he does But just kind of kind of all over the place and and with his messaging and stuff So he’s like but when the time’s ready i’m i’m i’m definitely gonna sign up with you I was like, dude, i’m here for you and he goes and he goes.
I just wanted to let you know that i’m still Paying for the 10 a month membership just in because that’s the way that I can support you And I just want to let you know like I haven’t really watched the videos recently But I just I keep letting that charge go through just because I want to keep supporting the work that you’re doing I was like shit man.
You’re gonna make me cry But yeah, like it’s just it’s really profound when you And we’ll, we’ll transition here into the person first, client second. Like that, that’s what it means. Like, you know, a lot of people, when they think of their marketing and their business, they put on their business hat, they get all serious and like, all right, I gotta, I gotta create content and do this stuff.
And then, and then it feels like this very serious thing. and. You know, like cash flow and like if you have kids or you’re, you know, Have a mortgage or whatever it is like, yeah, like it can be important But the minute you put on that like serious hat you lose the core element of yourself. And so You know, like way back when, like when I was doing mobility stuff, I was also an arm of my business.
It was called desk RX and I was the movement prescription for your desk job. So I was working with different corporate settings and trying to land corporate clients, which I think I worked with about like nine or 10 different corporate clients, like, you know, some in DC, some in Virginia, a lot in Pittsburgh, some remote, some in New York.
so it was just kind of like all over the East coast there. and that was really cool, but. My marketing felt like a chore like I was like, I gotta be taken professional and seriously and I gotta, you know, like be a little bit more, you know, less Clayton and more corporate Clayton, you know, and that just felt like wearing a heavy mask that just didn’t feel like me.
So, that’s another message to like, when you can really lean into yourself. You know, I think the movement makes sure it does a great job of explaining that with things like branding and stuff. but like what you see is what you get. Like, and I think the best compliment you can get is like when someone finally meets you in person, they’re like, Oh shit, yeah.
You’re exactly how I thought you would be. And you’re like, awesome. Great. You know, cause like that is such a skill that so many people are afraid to lean into. And like, if you are a coach or a trainer or a therapist, like if you can really lean into yourself, like you are going to put yourself into the top 10 percent and doing the work that other people just aren’t willing to do.
Caitlin: yeah. Yeah. Well, talking to you, Clayton, you sound exactly what I thought you’d sound like, so here we go.
Clayton: Probably a little less swearing on my content, but actually I had a long standing client, who was like, you should probably swear less in your content. I was like, I know, but I just get so excited.
So, it just happens sometimes. But, the person first, client second. So, a lot of what I teach my clients, in like marketing and sales, is that content is such a small piece of the puzzle. Like, yeah, put some content out there. But my mantra for myself and for all my clients is make it. I’m doing air quotes here.
Good enough. and so that’s, that’s so important, you know, when, when you, when you make your content good enough and then stop stressing about it, you can really double down on the things that really matter. So the, the, one of the main things that really matter, well, two one is talk about your offer every day.
and I, and that might sound. Like a little much, they’ll be like, well, Clayton, I don’t want to like annoy people or like, I don’t want to be salesy or I don’t want to be like, you know, but if you just, if you don’t talk about it, one, they’re not even gonna be aware it exists. And you’re like, but it’s on my website.
Yeah, no one’s clicking that. So, you know, you have… Right, unless you send them there, no one’s going there. And even then, like, you know, it’s like… Same rule of the website. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, the, the, the main thing that, like, you have to bang on that drum and they have to be aware, right? It’s like marketing to make known, right?
And then, so, you know, That’s step one. And then step two is like, you gotta, you gotta leverage, like showing you get results for people. and so that’s an important thing. And then, the other component is like, how much are you talking to people every day? So like one of the posts that I made a bit ago, and then I reshared it because it was just, you know, it was a banger.
but anyways, the one was like, how many DMS are you waking up to two in the morning? You know? And like, I shared my screenshot was like, I wake up to 22 DMS this morning. Like, and that is like a. You know, like, hey, how much should you wake up to? But like, if it, if the answer is zero. That’s a problem for your business.
Like we, that means you’re not having regular conversations with your audience. and so that is like one of the things that like, you know, I call it, putting the social back in social media. So like literally having more conversations with people and not like, Hey, do you want to sign up for my three month coaching?
Like, no, like, you know, the, the, I have a sales training and you know, we, we talk about. Not like making the first move or like, you know, if you’re it’s, it’s equivalent to like, if you went on a first date with someone and you’re just like, it’s like the people are gonna be like, Oh my gosh, whoa, like pump, pump the brakes, man.
Like, but that’s how people are doing their marketing and sales. Right? So I never go in for the first move. Like I do my, I let my stories do the selling for me, leveraging social proof, and telling a story. And then, I leverage you just talking with people and connecting with them first. So like, I, like, I’ll tell you a couple of things that, you know, people have literally said to me and like, as they were signing up for me.
So one was, it was a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner, physical therapist. And he’s like, yeah, dude, like one of the reasons I literally signed up with you is because like your love of stout beers and like, that might sound crazy, but like, because we had such a connection point, like we were DMing back and forth over like weeks like, and there was a time where like, I got like.
I think a 12 pack of a variety pack of like, choose your own stout beers. And so I just got like peanut butter, chocolate stouts. I got coffee stouts. I got oatmeal stout, like all the stouts. And he’s just, and so we’re just like riffing, like you would texting a friend about all these stouts. And then he goes, by the way, man, like what’s your one on one coaching look like?
And I call that the bingo moment. Right? So I go bingo. Like, you know, they, they ask. Right. And so The other examples are, like literally I should start paying Cecil more of like part of my marketing budget because the amount of people that have DM’d me about my dog, and then ended up like working with me.
Like it’s so funny. So like any points of connection that you have in common with people. So like Your pets, like kids, if you felt like sharing stuff like that, you know, the types of beer you drink, the wine you drink, the TV shows you watch, the podcast you listen to, the book you read, the, you know, the types of shoes you’re into, do you do ice baths, what are your hobbies and interests?
If you weave that into your stories, you are now weaving points of connection that they can relate more strongly to you. And when you talk about like, no like and trust gets thrown around a lot. But if someone knows you and then you and they have things in common, they’re much more likely to actually invest with you and pay you money.
And if you’ve done a good job with nailing down your niche and your ICA and your cohesive message that supports your, your statement and your bio, then now you have what’s called a sticky page. So you have like what’s, what’s known as a sticky website page. And if you think of your Instagram page as a sales page, that’s really how you should be thinking about it.
when you do all that and then you have all these things in common and you’ve been talking to them for like three weeks to three months now, when, if, and when they have that problem, who are they going to like the person with like 50, 000 followers or you, the person that they’ve been talking with for three months and connecting with, right?
Like it’s a no brainer. and so it’s really, really important to, and again, that’s, that’s a, I mean, we could do a whole podcast on a niche and ICA, but like, If you are resisting that, like I get that, that’s another part that a lot of my clients, struggle with, but I try and help and hold their hand through and really nail down.
Like if you don’t have a niche, really carved out, it, it’s, it’s just gonna make it harder for you. It’s like, it’s like walking in sticky mud versus just like walking on asphalt. and so. You know, yes, you’ll still get clients, but it’s not going to be as frequent. You’re not going to get as many leads.
and your message isn’t going to be very magnetic for, for the right people. so. And you
Caitlin: won’t help people as best as you could help the people who you’re like made to work with, meant to work with. You know, like, well, and also I was just going to say, when you were talking about building just kind of a, a relationship of other topics, other things outside of whatever it is you’re offering. Like you kind of hit the ground running with somebody when you already have that high level of rapport. Like you can help them better because you understand each other better and can talk to each other on a different level when you’ve already kind of built some of that just connection work in advance of even starting to work together.
Clayton: huge. It’s massive. It’s massive, you know, and it’s, Yeah, like I can’t emphasize that enough. Like if you were just like a human robot or like, I’m teaching mobility content, here’s how to do that. Like if you’re just teaching people to death, like good luck, like it’s going to be a long journey, but like you really need to like get people thinking differently about their problems.
and really start to shift some misconceptions and limiting beliefs that they might have about. Where they’re at, right. So, you know, that, that, it’s just so, so important. and when you can really lean into this stuff, like it, it, you, you really differentiate yourself. and again, the thing that I think about, Oh, I was going to talk about niche, something with that.
it might come to me. It might not. Oh, well, if it does, I’ll, I’ll grab it back, but
Caitlin: Was it maybe something about niche just because as a, as a coach or a. Practitioner, you’re more inspired and excited
Clayton: about when you do
Caitlin: start working with that
Clayton: person. Yes, I remember. Okay. So yes, I remembered talking about the niche and why it’s important. So a lot of people will resist niching down. but as an example, so because I’ve niche out and again, there’s, there’s like, I have a whole hour long training on just niche and ideal client avatar, like alone, you know, but like in a quick, like riff here, just to help you, there’s degrees in and out of, you know, like think of it like a standard deviation in or out.
so you can get a little bit more narrow and go out a little bit more, you can play around and find your niche, but. So my niche is health and fitness experts, right? And you can think like health, fitness, wellness, right? But, you know, I just coined it health and fitness. And there, there is internally known pre qualified like components or it’s like, Hey, I know these types of clients.
And like, if they’re here and if they have, if they’re at this point or whatever, that’s going to be a really good fit. you know, so there’s internally known pre qualifying, you know, Hey, are they in my niche or my ICA? And then there’s externally communicated. You know, things, right? So you don’t have to put like every single little thing in there, in your Instagram bio, but if you can get even just a little bit more specific, you can, you can get that much more magnetic for people.
So case in point, right? Like people are afraid, like, well, I don’t want to niche down. Cause like, I can work with everyone. And it’s like, yes. And the cool thing is like, if you’re doing it in person or online, if you already have clients, like. Just because you say ” I help tennis players like do you think all those people who don’t play tennis are just gonna drop you? As a trainer like no, they’re gonna keep working with you.
So that’s a limiting belief, right? and so Another one is like a real life example. So mine’s health and fitness and if you can imagine a bell curve, right? Which most of you can right because you’re all super nerds So you got your standard deviation bell curve in the middle you got the mean so the average of people And on the right end, you’ve got the skewed, like, you know, right side and then the left side tail, right?
So my standard deviation is like health and fitness. So a majority of my people are obviously health and fitness, but I’ve gotten some like tail ends. So like a couple, I got an inquiry from a guy who does landscaping in California. And he was like, Hey dude, like. Could you help me with my marking? I was like, I don’t know, but let’s talk about it.
Right. Ended up not being a good fit. but, I had a guy I actually worked with, his name’s Lorenzo. He’s a chef and a cook, and does like foraging. He’s a really great dude. but again, not really like my typical client. So it was like, kind of like a stretch, but it was really exciting for me and really cool.
And we like, just. Knocked it out of the park and like, he got really cool results. and then another one is I had a local filmmaker in Pittsburgh. he used to do music videos for like different artists and really cool short documentaries. And then, he came to me because he came to one of my kin stretch classes and then also saw I was doing marketing, coaching and things like that.
And he’s like, Hey man, like, could you help me with like, trying to grow my YouTube channel? I was just like, maybe like, you want to talk about it? And he’s like, yeah, let’s talk about it. So we talked about it and he was trying to grow his YouTube channel subscribers. And, the videos he was putting out at that time were very kind of abstract, have an avant garde.
And I was like, Like, this is cool, man. Like, I can see your creativity, but like, I don’t think anyone’s gonna want to share this, really? Like, it’s just like, so off the wall. You know what I mean? He’s like, okay, yeah, I get that. But he’s like, also, like, I don’t want to sell my soul and just try and go viral.
And I was like, totally get that, right? You know, and I, you don’t need to do that. But you need to create something that people, like, can resonate with. So he eventually created this, like, little series on, like, the, the stairs in Pittsburgh. and then… you know, it was like, it was just this, like, one short episode, and then he started covering different neighborhoods.
I’ll just shout him out here, Dean Bogg, really amazing human. So anyways, he started this series on YouTube called Neighborhoods. And basically, each episode was a different neighborhood in Pittsburgh. And if you’ve ever been to Pittsburgh, it’s just like a collection of little… Neighborhood so it’s his creativity and his filmmaking like imagine if humans of new york the photography page mashed up with like mr Rogers mashed up with like a really creative funny guy like that’s dean bogg, right?
So Anyways, his page fucking blew up. and again, i’m not i’m not taking credit for this at all But I just helped him like hey like Just kind of make a more cohesive message and then he did all the magic, and so like his, his videos blew up, like they were picked up by local papers, he was interviewed on like blogs, magazines, he blew up on Reddit, he started a Patreon that had like thousands, like thousands of dollars coming in, like just like really cool shit happening and it was just like, cool, like that was fun and that worked, you know, but now if I, and then another guy who was like, Hey, I’m running a, I want to like, Launch a vegan taco truck.
Can you help me with my marketing? We were at like a halloween party and I was like, I don’t know man, like i’m, you know A couple beers in and I don’t know if I can help you launch a taco truck, but like let’s talk about it another day right and we we ended up like Collaborating a lit a little bit and giving him some pointers but the fact of the matter is now if I came to instagram being like I help, aspiring, filmmakers, taco truck owners, lawnscapers, and health and fitness experts do marketing.
Like, they’d be like, what the heck? So you know, it’s not for me. And so if you’re a generalist, like you’re just not gonna, you’re just gonna blend in. It’s just gonna be vanilla. And you’re just gonna look like everybody else on, on social media trying to market their services. But if you can be a specialist.
And if you can think about how you want to be a specialist and bonus points, if you’re also involved in that community, that community, whether it’s like running, climbing jujitsu, hiking, gardening, trail running, like whatever your thing is, like, if you can be a part of that, like it’s just going to really take off.
So, that’s just my kind of tidbit on, on niching down and ideal clients. It’s super, super important. And if it’s a work that if you, if you can open your mind to it and you take that leap of faith. It also makes finding your potential ideal clients way easier too, because you can identify them quicker, and then you can control them.
So, that’s definitely important, but, you wanted to talk about, what does making moves mean, right?
Caitlin: Yeah. You use that, I mean, that’s, what all do you use that for? You use that as like your, is that your group cohort for coaching? What is the title of make moves? I just see it a lot.
Totally. So, that is, that’s the name of my coaching. So make moves coaching LLC. Yeah. and so I’ve got the make moves podcast. have, so it’s basically just like the ethos of like, My brand essentially and so to me make moves is When I think back there were so many things that I talked about doing I thought about doing and I just never did it You know, and I used to refer to myself as the idea man I had so many ideas like so many ideas and I was just like, you know what and then I just never did anything And so then what ended up happening is like I was so sick of that feeling and so I was like, you know what?
Screw it like we’re gonna do everything and so I just like started doing everything but then I ran into this issue of like doing so many things and they were, they were good, but they weren’t great, you know, and then and then I was working with a therapist, you know, a couple months, or a couple years ago, and just plug for a therapy, like if you, if you ever want to work with a therapist, like just, you got a doctor for your teeth, a doctor for your eyes, a doctor for your body, like, consider having someone to talk to if you need to.
So, anyways, quick, quick plug for therapy, but. With that, he brought this idea of like, Oh, it sounds like you’ve got a lot of open loops, and it comes from the, because I wanted to talk to him about it. So I was like, Where does this come from? He’s like, Oh, this is Gestalt. So when you look at it, you have like loops, right?
And if you have loops that are not closed, it’s just unresolved tension. so it might not be something you think on a conscious level, but it’s just kind of like white noise kind of eaten away at you in the back. and so when you start closing loops, it starts to feel better. You start to resolve things.
So what this looks like is like, you know, starting something and not finishing it, starting something and then finishing it, but like, kind of half assing it, right? And then not really doing much more of it, right? Like, so what happens is you get frustrated with yourself, and then you start to also not trust yourself as more.
So when you say like, I’m going to do this thing, whether you say it, you know, internally or externally. And then if you don’t do that thing, you start to lose trust. So if you’re like, I’m going to finally, like, Get rid of this back pain, or I’m going to finally lose this weight. I’m going to finally start this podcast.
I’m going to finally launch this online coaching business. Each time you say that, like, and if there’s a duration between the thing that you declare that you’re going to do, and then the longer, the time that lapses after you saying that the, the increase, like the potential drop of you not even doing it.
Right. So that’s what making moves to me was about. It’s just like, come on, Clayton, just do the damn thing. Don’t make it perfect. Like, let’s just go, you know? And so, and that’s the ethos of what I really help my clients try and embody is that like, You don’t have to be perfect. Like, you know, people think about creating content.
Like they’re writing a freaking novel, you know what I mean? Like they’re, they’re, they’re writing a 300 page novel. It’s going to be hardback bound. They’re sending it to an editor, they publish it, they run 5, 000 copies and then they sell it and like, Oh shit, there’s an error on page 12. Shit. All of this is now a loss.
And I’m going to have to take, you know, 20, 000 hits. And like, I got to rerun it and do all this stuff. That’s what they think about with their content. And like, I know it might sound silly, but like, Think about it. Like, do you hesitate to hit publish because like your hair wasn’t great? Or like, you know, you, you kind of said ums or uhs or whatever it’s like.
Just post it just freaking post it cuz just a moment. Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and well, and I think that well that’s kind of relating back to one of the things I mentioned at the beginning of our talk How I came to know you through doing talking videos and just that practice of doing it again and again You can you just it’s just putting in the reps this is something movement maestro talks about a lot too is just getting that consistency of like You can’t get better at anything unless you just do a whole lot of that thing and put in all the messy reps, right?
It’s just reality. no one started doing anything miraculous by doing something miraculous the first time they ever tried to do it. Yeah. So, I mean, I don’t know, maybe somebody did. Maybe like Mozart on the piano
Clayton: or whatever. Totally.
Caitlin: But, but yeah, you just, it’s, it’s, I feel like so much of it is just embracing that.
Creative process of of like just fucking it up so many times again and again and again That you learn you just start to home in on like how to do it better how to do it quicker how to do it More efficiently how to do it in a way that’s more you that feels more right or relatable or authentic or whatever words but um I just have to just just produce a huge amount.
There was a book, which book did this come from? Because I’ve read a lot of similar books. Maybe it was an atomic habit. I can’t remember one of those books about a photography class. And the example that they used was the professor assigned half the class. to, like, your assignment is to take as many photos as you possibly can in the whole semester.
Like, how, how many images can you create? That’s your goal, as many as possible. And then the other half of the class, it was, I want you to turn in one photo that is your best photo. And all the good photos, like, all the best photos of the whole class came from the people who are creating as much as they possibly could in the whole semester.
And all the, like, total crap photographs were the people who just… Put all their work into one precious photograph. Like there was nothing good to come of that, right? So I just love that example because I think it’s so illuminating. Repetition. Yep. Yeah. It’s you better at doing anything and you you can’t like skip the experience to gain experience and you
Clayton: you don’t want to like you might feel like you want to but like you like trust me you don’t want to and i’m actually going to make a post i didn’t get a chance to put it up yet today but i’ll probably post it tomorrow or the day after but um the post is like You know, you don’t need to read a hundred books.
You need to make a hundred posts. And, you know, like if you want to learn marketing, don’t read a hundred books, like make a hundred pieces of content and you will learn so much more than you ever would through that. And, you know, the other thing I want to plug here too, cause I think this is like an issue that a lot of people I work with and people I don’t work with, I know are struggling with this.
So I want to share with you all. Like, stop giving a shit about what other people in your industry are thinking. Like, it’s not for them. It’s for the people that are gonna pay you money to change their life for the better. Like, that’s what matters, right? And it’s so much easier said than done. I get that.
I empathize with that. I’ve struggled with that myself. But your life will exponentially change for the better when you stop caring so much about, like, what that PT will say, or what that person who does PRI will think, or what this person who’s a massage therapist will think, or, like, your mother, who, like, is not going to be your client thing.
Like, and like I said, and it might sound, like, kind of silly, but think about it. If you have those ten people floating around in your head before you hit record and try to create a piece of content, You’re thinking about all those other people when you should really be thinking about, like, this one type of person that you’re here to help and solve their one type of problem, right?
And so when you can do that, and that’s why it’s important to have a defined niche and a really clear ICA, because then, you know, like who your people are, you know, and I know like a large population of my people are like mobility specialists, personal trainers, physical therapists. So like, I can speak very clearly to those people, because I know their world and I’ve been in it.
and so that’s such an important thing to share. So like Do go through this exercise. If you’re following people that make you feel shit about yourself. and again, they can be great people but like if you’re like you look at their content and you’re like My content so shitty or like there’s so much for their head or like I can’t my stuff won’t be good as our stuff Just politely mute them.
So you don’t see their posts, you know, and and your life will change for the better So but now if you if you follow people and you gain inspiration from them and inspires you to create more inspires you to do the work Those are the people that, yeah, keep having their stuff show up in your feed, but…
You really need to like put on the blinders and just one of the mantras I have to is create more than you consume So if you were just like scrolling on Instagram scrolling on tik tok and consume consume consume consume You know, I call it going into a scroll hole if you’re just doing that you’re gonna feel like shit because you’re like wow I just basically spent three hours of my day consuming people’s stuff and looking how great their stuff is and I did Zero for my marketing.
Zero for my business. So, yeah, you’re not gonna feel great. Whereas, if you have a system and a framework and know exactly what you need to do on Instagram every single day, five days a week, then you just do that two hours of work. And then check out and that’s it. And that’s all you have to do. And then, yeah, you can still get an Instagram and kind of scroll memes and reels and just kind of turn your brain off.
But at least you’ve done the work that you know you need to do to get you leads and to get your clients. And that’s the biggest thing is a lot of people just don’t know what they need to do on a daily basis. And so they end up just consuming a ton of content, not posting and then just comparing themselves to everyone else.
And that’s really, that’s where most people are stuck a lot of times. Yeah.
Caitlin: Yep. I’ve experienced that. I know that feeling. I try to avoid that feeling. Like, once It’s like once you kind of recognize it and name it and know what it is. You can change it. You can, you know, kind of change your habits around it and, create a little more productive use
Clayton: of time.
Totally. Totally. and again, the more conversations you’re having with people that are actually going to be interested in your services, and the more bingo moments you have, and the more people paying you money per month, like, you’ll start, like, those ego metrics will start to dissipate. You know what I mean?
Yeah. You know, I’m at 10, 000 followers and like, I think the moment I hit 10k, I was like, Oh my gosh, I made it. Like, Oh my, you know, like my, I had a huge dopamine dump. My ego is very, very happy about it, but it didn’t really change anything for my business. and. You know, I’ve, and since then knowing what I know now and actually focusing on the things that actually gets me more clients, I actually dipped to 9, 000 and like, someone was like, Oh man, sorry to hear that.
And I was like, I don’t, I honestly say I don’t give a shit. Like, you know, like it’s really, you would have said that to me two years ago. I would have been devastated, you know, and I would have been like trying to go viral and dance and trying to get more followers just at that 10 K. But now, it could dip down to eight.
And I honestly would not care because I know the value and the impact that I’m making for the people that I’m here to help. So, you know, that that’s such a mindset shift. And that only comes through shifting your focus on what you actually need to do. And then, you know, start just creating more and finding your voice and your footing with everything.
Caitlin: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that’s a big part of person first, client second too. It’s like, be here for the people who are here and not always chasing the people who are not, you know? Totally, totally. Like that. Exactly. We could go on about that for a while, but yes. Totally, yeah. yeah, show up for the people who are, who are showing up, who are here.
Clayton: The other thing too, Fully. You, you, you had these questions, which are great questions. You were talking about like, Striking a healthy balance between life and personal stuff and business. and that is so important because like before I hired my coach like I was just doing like What I thought I should be doing.
And like, again, like she said, like, Hey, you’re like 90 percent there. You just need to really systematically do these things consistently and then do this way more and do that way more so that they do what way more and what way more was like, talk about your offer way more, AKA every day. And then do what?
Like to have more consistent conversations with your ideal clients and really. hone in your instagram bio and your message and commit to one thing because I was like still had one foot in the mobility world one foot in the marketing and sales world and I really even resisted that marketing and sales title because I’m just like I just I don’t know if that feels like me but like the moment I finally leaned into it like it was like People were like resonating with my content.
I was getting more DMs. People were like, dude, like your stuff really like, I feel like you’re in my brain right now. And like when I fully leaned into it, I was like, okay, yeah, this is it when you fully commit. And like, Alex Simozy talks about that, where like in the beginning, he had four different businesses he was running, and they were all just kind of okay, but none of them really took off.
And like, that’s what I was doing. I was kind of half-assing four different things. I mean, like I cared about what I did, and I, and it was good, you know, but like I realized my potential was being squandered because I was. Really just spreading myself too thin and now when I’m fully showing up to this like my program’s gotten so So so much better like my clients have gotten way more results Like I feel way more confident about what i’m doing.
I’m more clear on what I’m doing. So if you find yourself just like Spreading yourself too thin, or saying yes to too many things, or like, trying to like, do all these collaborative projects, or trying to do all these different things, and it’s just like, kind of flopping, like, just, see if you can kind of say no to some things, and really double down on the things that you truly want to do, that’s a big game changer, but, you know, for like, the life balance stuff, To like I talk about getting dream clients, and that’s a big, big thing is like every single client that I’m working with every person on my calendar.
I’m just like, Oh, shit, like I get to hang out with this person for an hour. Sweet. Like, yeah, amazing. Right. And that’s because I’ve done such a good job with really showing who I am. And connecting with people on common interest stuff. And so by the time they, they, you know, decide to hire me and work with me, it’s just like, oh, hey, friend, like I feel like I’m grabbing a beer, going on a hike or grabbing a coffee with them.
And like the fact that I get off the call and I feel energized by it and I feel. Like purpose, and I feel driven, and I feel really happy to spend the time with the people that are in my calendar. That is what getting dream clients is all about. Yeah. And so before, if I would just say yes to anyone, like it would feel effort, it would feel like work and I would be drained and it would feel like a, like a, a balance, out of balance for that,
Right, right. Yeah. Oh, that’s so great. so, I’m just going to wrap up with a little bit about how people can work with you and how people can reach you, if that’s okay, Clayton, if that sounds good. I know you had mentioned before we got on this call and hit, or before we hit record, you work kind of in two capacities, one on one, and you run a group cohort twice a year, correct?
and then. What’s, what is your preferred way for people to reach out to you if they’re interested in
Clayton: continuing this conversation? Shoot me a DM. Yeah, DM’s on Instagram. Yeah, yep, that’s the thing. so it’s at Clayton dot moves. send me a message. you know, feel free to let me know you listen to the podcast and I’d love to chat with you more.
and you know, I literally am an open book. So like any questions you have, like, I don’t gatekeep anything. I don’t like, Like, I’m happy to share and show you exactly what the program is about and answer any questions. And, yeah, I like the group and the 101. Like, I love them both. It’s really, we focus on the same principles and work towards the same outcomes.
it’s just, kind of a different container and some different, you know, deliverables and things like that. But the core of the program is very similar. and I like it because, like, we can, you know, the vibe of the group is awesome. and again, I really create an awesome community where, like, everyone’s, like, pretty rad human beings.
So, like, I’m, I’m really happy about, like, the groups that we’ve had over the years. and then one on one, like, we can really dive deep into the stuff that you’re working on as well. but yeah, so the best way is just, like, to DM me on Instagram. That’s another thing too, is, like, I used to have, like, this website with all these landing pages and pointing people in a million different directions.
But now, I just, like… Literally, I like my Instagram, which functions as my website. And then, you know, my landing page where you can book a chat with me. So you could, if you wanted to, you could just book a chat with me for free that way, or you could DM me, but I just love the ending with people just because I can actually get to know, like.
You and where you’re at and like, even if we’re a good fit, cause like, I’ve, if people aren’t far enough, far enough along on the journey, I’ll let, I’ll let you know, like, I’ll be like, Hey, do this, this and this and like post for like a year and like refine who you want to work with through this. so there are points where I feel like people can get more bang for their buck if they do a little bit of work and then come back to me.
So like, I will let you know if that’s the case, but, yeah, that’s really the best way. you can get ahold of me and then, on the link of my bio, I also have access to the podcast. It’s been on a little bit of a hiatus with, you know, some different things I’ve been working on, but I am planning to bring it back to life, September, October, so definitely.
If you want more of this stuff, you know, feel free to pop over there and check it out. Awesome.
Caitlin: Well, thank you, Clayton. It was really good to catch up with you for a longer discussion and hear a little bit more about your history and what you’re all about. And it is totally, I really meant it when I said it.
Talking to you now really feels like I already knew who you were from the way you present yourself on Instagram. It’s really you. And that’s so, that’s, that means a lot. especially in the context of everything that we’re discussing today. So, thank you for sharing yourself and from such a rich and varied background.
I didn’t even know you did all this like health coaching
Clayton: as well. Yeah. Yeah.
Caitlin: So great.
Clayton: But yeah, no, thank you so much, Caitlin, for having me on. I was just like, I was truly honored and flattered when you asked me to be on. And I’ve been a fan of your journey and your work and everything you’re doing.
And yeah, it was just like, when you asked me, I was like, yep, you don’t need to like to pitch me on it. Just send me the link. Let’s go. So
Caitlin: Yeah, thank you. Oh yeah. It was really good to chat. Thanks. Yeah,
Clayton: For sure. Thank you.
Caitlin: Thank you so much for listening to my talk with Clayton. I hope you enjoyed it. Again, if you want to reach out to Clayton with any questions, the best way to reach him is through DMs on Instagram at Clayton.
moves. And as always, I would really appreciate your support. If there’s something you learned here on the Practice Human Podcast, if you could leave us a rating and a review, it will help our conversations grow