Dr. Sarah Court is a physical therapist, movement mentor, and a yoga teacher trainer. She’s the creator of Quantum Leap Community, a continuing education online mentorship group that helps movement teachers methodically and clearly understand how to work with their more challenging clients while staying within their scope of practice. She teaches public workshops and teacher trainings online and in person, bringing together the worlds of yoga, strength, and neuromuscular exercise. Sarah lives in Los Angeles, and splits her time between teaching and seeing patients. She has experience in orthopedic and neurologic settings, rehabilitating patients post-surgery or injury, and managing chronic neuromuscular conditions.
Laurel Beversdorf is an international yoga educator, certified kettlebell specialist, and strength and conditioning coach. She runs her own Virtual Studio with over 150 members. Classes blend strength training, rehabilitation practices, self-massage, and yoga. Laurel is a mom and a New York City transplant living in Huntsville, Alabama. When she’s not taking care of her daughter or teaching, you can find her on long walks in the forested foothills of the Appalachian mountains.
Together, Laurel and Sarah created Movement Logic Tutorials to help teachers help their students bridge the rehabilitation process to get back to the activities that give their lives meaning. They also host the Movement Logic podcast.
Find out more about their work at sarahcourtdpt.com, laurelbeversdorf.com, and movementlogictutorials.com. And be sure to follow them on Instagram @sarahcourtdpt, @laurelbeversdorf, and @movementlogictutorials.
Episode Transcript
Caitlin
I’m just going to talk for a second to make sure yes I see my little sound wave. We are good to go. Okay, all right I am very excited about the talk today because I have Dr Sarah Kt and Laura Beversdorf here with me and um. I have been following the movement logic podcast Laurel and Sarah’s podcast for a little while since it started and I’m just in love with all of the super valuable information that they are putting out into the world and the kind of thought provoking conversation that they’ve been having on their podcast. So. I was really excited to get Sarah and Laurel here with me to talk about a couple of topics that I just thought they would be really expert guests and I would love to hear their opinions on these topics. So we’re going to talk a little bit about scope of practice and about. Um, cognitive biases in a clinical setting or just kind of in our in our work in our niche populations and in our bubbles that um that we kind of build our philosophies from and our um, theoretical models from and treat from so I want to introduce Dr Sarah courtt Sarah Cort is a physical therapist, a movement mentor and a yoga teacher trainer. She’s the creator of quantum leap community, a continuing education online mentorship group that helps movement teachers methodically and clearly understand how to work with their more challenging clients while staying within their scope of practice.
Caitlin
She teaches public workshops and teacher trainings online and in person bringing together the worlds of yoga strength and neuromuscular exercise Sarah lives in Los Angeles and splits her time between seeing patients and teaching and she has experience in orthopedic and neurologic settings. Rehabilitating patients post-surgery or injury and managing chronic neuromuscular conditions. Um, thank you Sarah for being here you may yeah yeah of course you may not know this but I stalked your blog for a little while when you were making the transition.
Sarah
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Now.
Caitlin
From yoga to physical therapy because you were sharing some very helpful information about going through the process of completing prerequisites to apply to pt school and when you’re searching for schools in California.
Sarah
Ah.
Caitlin
Um, just for people listening I I kind of knew Sarah a little bit peripherally in the yoga teacher world in New York because I think Sarah you moved from New York out to l a when you started pt school is that right? or maybe shortly before you started pt school. Oh okay, okay.
Sarah
Just a little bit before like a year and a half before yeah
Caitlin
Yeah, so I like I knew your name and you were an inspiration for me in seeing a yoga teacher transition over shall we say a little bit later in life to school for physical therapy and it’s like if she can do it now. Maybe I can too and I really followed your blog because um, it. It helped me piece together some of the confusing just just kind of amorphous and confusing. Um I don’t know ah overwhelming picture of what I needed to do to complete prerequisites so then apply and then and then become a Physical therapist. So thank you for that much much later I don’t know if you ever know that followed that but um, it was very helpful. Yeah.
Sarah
Um I I didn’t know that I’m glad I’m glad it was helpful. It is confusing and I was confused so I was like you know I’m not dumb. So if I’m confused by this. Everyone else is as well. So.
Caitlin
Yeah, I’m glad you were able to intuit that and share shares some really helpful information. Um, cool and um and then the other guest on the call is Laura Laurel Beversdorf um Laurel is an international yoga educator certified kettlebell specialist and strength and conditioning coach. She runs her own virtual studio with over 150 members; her classes blend strength training rehabilitation practices, self massage and yoga. Laurel is a mom and New York City transplant living now in Huntsville Alabama when she’s not taking care of her daughter or teaching you can find her on long walks in the forested foothills of the appalachian mountains um Laurel and I go way back from our time teaching yoga in New York speaking of prerequisites d school we we suffered through a couple of really intense semesters of um, foundational science classes with labs we took a with that physics. We took a physics lab and lecture block class.
Laurel
Oh my god.
Caitlin
On a Friday right? It was like all Friday morning and into the afternoon and survived physics lecture and lab class. Yeah, um, we did that together and um, but really I’ve always been super grateful for Laurel just as um.
Laurel
I would use the word survived. Has.
Sarah
Sounds horrible.
Caitlin
Somebody to kind of think with bounce ideas off of um, always has always been somebody that I’ve enjoyed sharing learning with and um, so Laurel I’m really excited to have you here on the podcast as well.
Laurel
I’m so honored. Yeah, and you’re like my sister. I almost feel professionally like we grew up together. That’s how I think of it.
Caitlin
Yes, we did when you went through like all the um rough teenage years angsty teenagers together the angsty teenage years we went through in our mid 30 s um.
Laurel
Um, yeah, the angst.
Laurel
Yeah, completely completely professional angst and I totally agree.
Caitlin
Yes, yes, yes, um, it was tumultuous and I wouldn’t have wanted to share it with anyone else. Ah. Um, so together Laurel and Sarah created movement logic tutorials so you’re both, um, kind of working as mentors to help teachers help their students bridge this is another piece of the conversation I think’s really interesting and kind of come into the talk in scope of practice but but bridge. Rehabilitation process with getting back to like all the classes and activities that, um, really give their lives meaning so ah and I I think that’s so crucial to have people working together that can bridge this gap between Rehab and whatever else. Um, they’re doing it actively in their lives. So. Um, so we’ll get into that a little bit in the talk today. But I think movement logic is a super valuable resource for teachers to kind of help, I mean correct me if I’m wrong, but to kind of help see more clearly ways to work with students who are in pain or recovering from injury or. Taking their classes with certain ongoing pain and injuries and just how to navigate those waters a little bit more. Um, confidently. Would you say:
Laurel
Ah, absolutely yeah I think that the movement logic tutorials strength is in the merging of the theory with actual practical tools that can be used immediately. So. We do offer anatomy education through the tutorials but it’s really now. Okay, how are we going to understand this anatomy, understand this pain science and then apply movement tools to actually help the people in front of you and not as a prescriptive way of doing it but rather like the person the individual in front of you. Taking into account everything that they’re able to tell you and that their doctors are saying and then what you are then within scope of practice capable of helping them with So. Yes, it’s exactly exactly how you described it. That’s what it is.
Caitlin
Cool, Cool Um, and one of the things I Really love about it is that you’re all coming from the educators involved in movement logic are all coming from different backgrounds from physical therapy and yoga and Pallodis and um and then kind of everybody working in their own. Multidisciplinary ways I think too which relate kind of bolster sat up.
Laurel
Yeah, 100% I think that the multidisciplinary nature of it. Not just movement teachers. But also we’ve got Sarah is the pt and we’re drawing from modalities including strength right? So I’m a cs cs and and. You know we’re using principles from strength training. We’re using principles from yoga and pallati is taking kind of compiling knowledge to create something that’s potentially more useful simply because it’s going to be able to reach different types of learners and different people but also um, boost. Different capacities.
Sarah
Yeah, sometimes I feel as well like my role is basically the one who’s like now you need to send your student out to a clinician because if you’re seeing this and this and this this is beyond your scope like I feel like I’m a little bit the like you know the whip of scope.
Caitlin
Um, yeah, yeah.
Caitlin
Yeah.
Sarah
If that’s a thing scope whip. Its cool whip is a lot better but scope whip. That’s one of the things that I do.
Laurel
Ah, scope with ah.
Caitlin
Bit cop with um yeah, just kind of like where to draw that line. Yeah, um.
Laurel
Um, and boundaries can be very boundaries can be very freeing. You know it’s like if I’m a movement teacher and I’m not really sure what my boundaries are then when.
Sarah
Yeah me up.
Laurel
Students come up to me and ask me questions that I am not qualified or knowledgeable or you know I’ve no business and actually no desire to answer for them and when I understand my scope of practice I can vary confidently. Communicate that to them in a way that’s actually helpful and it’s not just a cover your ass kind of like have you talked to your doctor yet, but it’s like oh well, you know who I think might actually be more capable of helping you with this and who I think could really Benefit. You know you could benefit from seeing is a Pt aura or this or that.
Caitlin
Um, yeah, yeah for what? yeah and and I think people appreciate that too I find that people kind of appreciate being told like well I’m not the expert.
Laurel
It’s very freeing because then now I can focus on what I’m here to do which is teach movement.
Caitlin
To come to on that. But if you want to know more about that I recommend this person you know they feel I feel like people feel more confident in recommendations like when they when it comes to them in that way. Um, yeah.
Laurel
And a lot of times I think people just want you to listen and hear them and they want to be able to get whatever is going on in their body out into the open so that someone else has heard about it and knows about it. And so that they don’t feel so alone and as a teacher as a movement teacher that can also absolutely be our role. We can listen and we should listen and we should get better at listening and then we should know what to do with that information.
Sarah
And I think there’s also a lot of value in an answer that is something like I hear you or oh that must be really such a you know? Bummer for you. Not bummer What a bummer for you? No but Like. Oh I and I hear you you know you’re saying that your your knee hurts and you can’t get down on the floor and play with your grandchildren and I know that that’s something you love to do I may not be qualified to help you with that. But I totally hear you and here’s my recommendation for a person I can help you you know so to that end I feel like I remember when I was Moving. I Always say just I don’t mean just as in yoga teachers or somewhere or somewhat like less than being a Pt but I just mean like I wasn’t a pt yet and when people would ask me questions when I was just a yoga teacher I I felt and I I don’t know it certainly wasn’t put on me by anybody else. But I So I felt a certain amount of pressure to answer. Question. Um, and I didn’t like having to say things like I don’t know or just don’t do that pose I mean that’s what ultimately put me on the path from being a yoga teacher to becoming a Pt but I think it takes a certain amount of wisdom and practice. To be comfortable answering with something like I hear you that sounds terrible. Let’s get you sorted out here’s this person as opposed to well you know what? you really should do is you need to just do more pigeon pose or something like that. You know we have um in the clinic where I work we have practitioners who are. Ah, palladi instructors and we have gyrotonic there as well and every now and then I’ll overhear them saying something to 1 of the people they’re working with and and to be clear. They’re not working with injured people. They’re working with people who want to you know have a private ah pilates or private jaritonic session. But. Ah, you know a person will tell them something and I’m like I have a feeling I know what that is and they’re like oh well, you just need to get more expansion or something and I’m I’m internally eye rolling really hard because that doesn’t mean anything you know, but when when our when our our own learning is in a field that is not a. A problem solving field like pt is a very problem solving field. Yoga is not a problem like in terms of physical you know pain or injury or things like that yoga is not designed to be a problem solving field in that way like ah like a 1 to 1 ratio of like sorry I’m I gesticulate way too much for podcasts. It’s audio, It’s not a visual medium and I just hit my table because I had so much feeling about what I’m saying but um, so so you know we we when we are movement t-shirts exclusively it can. When you don’t have a good answer. It can be very tempting to say something like you know you just need to broaden your collarbones which is one of my least favorite phrases that people have ever said. Um because it doesn’t mean anything. So I Think what I’m trying to say is that you know the the more seasoned teachers understand. Where they fall in terms of their scope and like what their limitations are and what they should and should not be saying to to their students and to be fair as a Pt I have limitations as Well. You know I have people who I’ve worked with where you know be working for a while and the thing is not getting better and I’m like okay. Um, and we need to send you to somebody else because I’m doing everything that I know how to do and nothing is changing so something else is going on here. You know so.
Laurel
I think that this idea of there being a problem and there being a solution is an interesting framework with which to talk about like what the role of a clinician is versus what the role of a teacher a movement teacher is because. There are a number of potential or maybe maybe a better word that we would like better is obstacles right? So it’s a little bit less kind of negative and a little less of a bummer word. So the obstacles when someone comes with a particular pain somewhere in their body is There’s this pain in their body. They don’t know what it is right. And they’re coming to you the movement teacher and they’re looking for you to solve that obstacle one they’re looking for you to tell them what it is and 2 they’re looking to you to help them not have that pain. But there’s also then the obstacle of them having this pain not knowing what it is but also wanting to continue doing the practice that they love and to continue staying active right? So whatever that is that is an obstacle that you actually potentially could help them with right? So what happened is that I think we try to solve the wrong problems we try to help people overcome obstacles that we shouldn’t be helping them overcome. We should be helping helping them overcome these other obstacles that are within scope. So an example is this: I referred a student to a physical therapist. She’s working with Elbow pain. Ok, she comes to my strength sessions in the morning and I told her look I can totally keep you moving because she told me what she can and cannot do with her elbow. Like look you can keep coming to my small group strength training classes and I’m going to give you completely different stuff that’s kind of related to what everyone else is doing but it’s not going to involve your elbow but in the meantime I Want you to go see this physical therapist to help you with your elbow.
Sarah
Yeah, that’s exactly right? I I right now I have a pretty gnarly ankle sprain and I was just when you said that Laurel I was just thinking. Oh yeah, it’s like the 2 different things that I have done for myself. I have my ankle rehab and then I have my workout and then my workout is. A workaround around this ankle you know so that’s the job of the movement teacher right? the workaround and then the job of the Rehab is the clinician.
Caitlin
Yeah, but we can’t just work around something forever and hope that it’s going to get better right? You need the the stimulus and the input that’s going to help help the the thing that you’re working around. Yeah.
Sarah
Right? No you right? exactly? but I mean like for example, right? It’s in this pretty acute phase of this ankle sprain I can’t do like a single leg.
Caitlin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah
Deadlift like that’s just not an option right now. So my workouts are very sort of bilateral. But then I’m also doing all the Rehab part and and you definitely need to be doing both.
Laurel
Right? But also isn’t it true though. A lot of injuries do just get better on their own.
Caitlin
Um, yeah, so I do.
Sarah
Yeah, they do, but it depends if they do. But here’s my here’s my I was about to say here’s my big but ah, they may get better on their own. However, depending on how long it’s been going On. It’s entirely possible. And it’s and actually extremely likely that the person has developed a movement pattern that was sort of to you know the get around the workaround movement pattern even in just how they they walk or how they you know, exercise or whatever and that doesn’t automatically go back to what it was before So the even if the injury itself is healed the.
Laurel
Ah.
Sarah
The movement pattern generally does not change back. So that’s a really huge part of why Rehab is useful to do because you are you know over the course of the healing process. You’re making sure that the patterning of the rest of the body is not just you know going down the drain.
Caitlin
Yeah.
Laurel
Right? And also I feel like a really big benefit of the you know process of seeing a physical therapist or a clinician is the support that you immediately feel knowing that this person has the background and the insights the tools.
Sarah
Yeah, hundred percent
Laurel
To be able to help you on a level that you can’t just like go to Youtube for or you know go see your yoga teacher for either right? and that can be very reassuring.
Caitlin
Yeah.
Sarah
Yeah, and as well not just the knowledge base but you know in different ways Clinicians and movement teachers have a cheerleader factor right? Um, and as a clinician you know I’ve had people come to me. Who are in a lot of pain and they haven’t you know something going on that I’m familiar with and they have the question of is this going to get better and it’s a sincere question you know and and I I take them seriously and I say yes it is and you know my ability to know that it’s going to get better I sort of have to hold that for them in the beginning. And then as the as the healing goes on as their pain decreases then they start to believe it’s going to get better then they can take on that belief themselves but a lot of time early on you know if you if you haven’t seen a lot of people get injured and get better. This is the first time you’ve really hurt yourself or. You know it’s it’s very. It’s scary and it goes right into that like amygdala fear based will I be able to play basketball again is this the end of my hockey career. You know all of those things and um you so you need someone to sort of like hold that space for you and and be reassuring you just you just do.
Caitlin
Yeah, yeah I was wondering if um, each of you I Love it I talk ah cut that was a great like it really set the stage there. But.
Sarah
Caitlin, we’re very chatty. I don’t know if you’ve noticed. Are.
Caitlin
Ah a lot There’s like a lot of things we can pull out of all of that. Um I was wondering if each of you um, just kind of orient our listeners in um, a little bit of your light kind of background and where it took you and what you’re doing now could speak just a little bit about your specific. Um. Treatment method or scope of practice and what you offer you’ve already both mentioned that but also things specifically that you feel are the gaps that often need to be filled in by another professional, um and then also. Just kind of on the other side of that. So like the the gaps and things that you find yourself frequently referring out for and I know you’ve both spoken on that a little bit. Um, but then also over time in your career as you’ve developed through different modalities. Are there certain some people use this phrase shiny objects or. Techniques and ideas and frameworks that you’ve been so like deeply drawn into and passionate about that. Um, it’s it kind of leads you to only see that 1 thing you know so like like I guess I guess how how have you navigated. Seeing the things you don’t do and the things you do do and has that ever made you feel more empowered more limited. Um I was just wondering if you could kind of speak a little bit on that spectrum of like I do do this. This is my main thing I don’t do this and how some some of those things have like how you’ve identified that for yourself and.
Sarah
I have a wonderful line of essential oils for you Caitlin if you’re interested for. Yeah.
Caitlin
Oh yeah, hitting into oils right? right? Some people have gone hard into oils I know few of them know Laurel and I have.
Sarah
That was a joke and I’m sorry if it offended anybody deeply problematic problem. The yoga world.
Caitlin
This joke a few times I think about the people going really deep into the oils. Um, but yeah, like like what what were some of those trending points where are epiphanies where you’re like this thing I’m just going to let that go and say that’s that’s not my thing I’m going to send somebody to somebody somebody else. Or this this is the thing I’m really going to stick to and keep going down. This course is of becoming the expert on this um, is it limiting is it empowering um butural.
Laurel
I can yeah I can speak I can speak to it. Yeah, so I definitely felt like as a yoga teacher initially as an alignment base. That’s how I termed my kind of specialty or my niche was. Like I’m alignment based yoga teacher that I often was very disappointed in my own ability to solve students problems with alignment and and in fact, often felt like I was causing.
Caitlin
That’s enough.
Laurel
Problems with alignment like it started to dawn on me that despite what I had come to believe about how important a certain type of alignment was for safety that like almost the opposite was happening where students were. Who had what I thought was great alignment coming up with pain and stuff and their shoulders and hamstrings and all this stuff and I myself had it as well. And so I was kind of ah attached to this shiny object of alignment based yoga and then I got into self massage and became very attached to the shiny um object of.
Caitlin
Um, you.
Laurel
Rubber balls. But the reason that I became attached to the shiny object of rubber balls is that I actually found immediate relief from implementing self massage in my own personal practice like my pain. Would be like immediately reduce and I would feel more relaxed and like it would come back eventually. But I would get that kind of gumball out of the machine moment where it was instant gratification Instant relief and it was a really positive actually tool for me at the time. But then I became very attached to that and maybe you’re sensing a theme here which is that I was really looking for the magic bullet I was looking for the answer and I was coming up short. Not with the tools I don’t think there’s anything wrong with teaching alignment based yoga. I Don’t think there’s anything wrong with self massage. The problem is the belief that this one thing is all you need this one thing is going to take all your pain away and then I started strength training and I avoided that pitfall I avoided that trap. Because I think by this time I had been around the block enough times to see that. Okay now I can do yoga I can teach yoga with alignment I started to get into also like multiplayer yoga and i. Kind of dabbled a little bit in this idea that there’s such a thing as functional movement and then I was like oh massage and now strength training enough kind of like amassed a whole bunch of different ways of moving and I’m going wow like not only do I feel the best I’ve ever felt. But I’m not bored at all. So I guess it’s not about the 1 thing I guess it’s about all the things right to get. They are and having the ability to make choices between them.
Caitlin
Um, um, yeah, yeah, you went through a lot of things for a while I did too I did too I I totally with you on that.
Laurel
Yeah, and then this the scope of practice thing. So when I think about my scope of practice I think about how I want to feel when someone comes up to me and wants me to help them with someone. Something or someone no usually something I need to do some about my boyfriend. Um, okay I’ll I’ll call a guy all right. Don’t worry about it. No I’m just kidding. Um, so the ah the way I want to feel is that I am enthusiastic. I’m Competent and I want to feel like I can do something to really help you here I have the ability to do that. But when someone comes up to me and asks me to help them in a way that’s outside of my scope of practice I don’t feel that way I feel like I’m. Yeah I don’t feel this way anymore. But I used to feel like I was on the spot that I had to come up with an answer right now that I needed and I needed a magic bullet solution I needed to have one solution to offer them and also I would feel like I needed to tell them. Specifically what was wrong with them. So Not only did I need a specific solution I actually needed to provide them with a specific answer to what was happening with them which is aka a a diagnosis right? right? And then I was supposed to provide them with a specific solution which is aka a prescription right? A movement prescription. And so I’m operating out of scope and I don’t feel competent I don’t feel enthusiastic I feel afraid because I don’t know what I don’t actually know what’s wrong with them and I have no way to be able to help them especially like in the 5 minutes after class. So it was really freeing. It was really freeing to you know. Undergo these years of experience that I think is probably really at the heart of how I am where I am now of like unearthing what is really what is really my role as a teacher. It’s it’s not so simple. You know I don’t think we really fully understand our scope of practice from a 200 hour teacher training right? All I heard was don’t diagnose so like but really I continue to diagnose after the 200 hour teacher training in subtle ways. So these conversations are really important because it’s actually pretty subtle and it’s actually. Not so black and white and so what I think of now as scope of practice is my scope of practice is the scope. The zone of genius or comfort or creativity that I occupy as a movement teacher and I want to feel like. I can really help someone with the tools that I have and as soon as I don’t feel that way I’m I’m actually not even interested in pursuing a solution with them in that way I can offer them solutions that I’m interested in offering. But then I’m going to just refer out for these other solutions right? I’m going to send them to you or I’m sent send them to Sarah I’m going to send them to you know someone locally.
Caitlin
Yeah, that it makes me think of something that I heard on your podcast when you were talking about time management and I can’t remember who you had gotten this idea from but um, it’s something like how do you feel before you do the thing.
Laurel
Um, oh Laura Vandercam oh no oprah hope yeah Oprah each.
Caitlin
All you’re doing the thing and after you do the thing It was the op right? Yeah and so if you if somebody’s asking you a question about something they want help with and you’re already feeling kind of like icky about it like like who I don’t know and then like and then you start telling them some stuff right because I used to do this when I was teaching and just kind of didn’t know and I just start saying some stuff that I thought it might be and then and that while I’m saying it like literally while I’m saying it I’m like this is this ah this probably isn’t right I don’t know I’m talk about I’m just saying some things and then afterwards I feel really horrible about that exchange. So it’s like that. I think that what you were explaining was like if ah how you feel before how you feel during how you feel after if any 2 of those things feel off or don’t make you feel good then it’s just not the right thing for you or it’s not that you’re not holding that appropriately or you shouldn’t be spending your time on that. Or you know it’s just not. It’s just like not the right fit. Um, when you’re explaining that Laurel is making me think of like these kind of icky feelings that I’ve had at times when I know I kind of know that I’m venturing down a path that is not the correct path for my expertise or knowledge or what I what I do best in helping people.
Laurel
Ah, right, right? It’s not. It’s not my job. You know? Yeah, it’s my job to listen. It’s my job to take in all of the information I can and filter it through.
Sarah
It is my job though. But.
Caitlin
Right.
My own ability to to help them. But then it’s also my job to know what I’m not qualified to do or what I don’t actually want to do and and refer out to a PT probably
Caitlin
Um, yeah.
30:50.57
Sarah
Um, from my perspective when I was when I first became a yoga teacher I was a I trained in Jivaookie which someone once I said that to them and they replied with oh that rock and roll shit and ah Hu yep, the rock and roll shit. Um, sorry I don’t know if I’m allowed to swear on your podcast I apologize Ah, but ah, you know it it I was initially a yoga teacher who knew almost nothing about how the body worked and the one of the things that.
Caitlin
Yeah, that’s fine.
Sarah
Propelled me to start to learn more about it and actually train in some other methodologies within yoga was things would happen like you know I would teach a class and we’d have for like a bunch of backbendnds and then everyone would be down lying on their back on the ground and I would see like 5 people like. Grabbing their back and kind of moving around and I’m like oh I did something bad but I don’t know why you know I was just deeply ignorant and um or you know again, my big answer of a lot of the time when someone would say it hurts me when I do this pose I would just be like just don’t do that pose. You know? but I didn’t have any I didn’t have any other answer and ultimately then when I was in when I was in pt school. It became very clear to me that I was much older than everybody else there number 1 which I just had to deal with but that.
Laurel
Me.
Caitlin
Yeah.
Sarah
Most of a handful of people that I know from school were prior pelodi’s instructors or prior personal trainers and and were doing sort of the same thing that I was doing ah but most of them weren’t and there’s a very I don’t know what it’s like in New York but here in l la at least there’s a very sort of like. Ortho bro culture ah in in a lot of the pt because usc is here and usc is very excited about the fact that they’re number one and so there’s a lot of like we’re number 1 bros that come out of Usc and. There’s a lot of clinics that are run like that where and they’re like you have to wear a button down tucked into your khakis and wear some sneakers and I was like I’m going to die if I have to do this is this is what it means to be a pt if I have to wear a polo shirt and a button and a khakis and a sneaker and and look like a weird twelve year old boy. I don’t want to do this I don’t want to do this sorry to all the 12 year old boys out there but it just it was it was so um, like it was this sort of like prescriptive just way of being and this very sort of like you know I’ll do this special test. You know and like boom. Oh it’s your super spinnaes tend and that kind of thing and it it was so completely. The opposite of everything that I had learned as a yoga teacher and everything that I believed which is there is no one muscle that’s doing a thing you know, but it was people were people were very quick to be like oh I did my you know I did the it’s not called Sadie Hawkins what’s that I always call it Sadie Hawkins what’s that arm. Thank you. Because that’s the only way I remembered it was I was like it’s like a Sadie Hawkins does this the thing for internal rotation. It’s supposed to like tell you would attend it. Yeah yeah and they’re all dumb. Yeah, and and they’re also all and while we’re on a subject. Yeah I’m never doing it.
Caitlin
There’s like a million special tests for the shoulder and like basically all of them are garbage. Yeah, right and to learn them all and then I was like okay I’m just going to clear that lesson from my mind forever.
Sarah
And and also the part that I hated about all of them is they’re pain provoking so people are coming in. They’re like my shoulder hurts I’m like great let me make it feel worse. You know? Yeah, let me hurt it a bunch and then tell you to come back to me twice a week. You know so.
Caitlin
Right? Yeah, let’s heard it this way. How about if I heard it this way. Yeah, right? yeah.
Sarah
That whole thing. So so while I was in pt school I did one of my clinical rotations at a clinic that had red cord which is um for those of you that aren’t familiar which is it’s not a very well-known methodology here in the in the United States but it’s very well known. It’s from.
Caitlin
Me.
Sarah
Norway I always get confused if it’s norwegian or swedish but I’m pretty first from Norway um, and it’s essentially sort of a so so a suspension system that is for Rehab work because you can offload body parts and it’s kind of brilliant because it’s both ortho and neuro at the same time. And in terms of like was there a shiny object that you glommed onto I glommed onto that shiny object really hard and I ended up working at the clinic after a school. Um, they hired me and and I did like everybody got red cord Just everybody. And then you know I had my you know other other Pts who were at the clinic and and I was like oh I guess maybe so sometimes people need like manual work or stretches I guess like just just redcord is not the answer to everybody’s needs and so. You know, broadening what I was doing with different patients and and doing more manual work on some people are actually giving people static stretches to do you know as homework I’m waiting for the like fire and brimstone to come out of the ground and swallow me out for daring to suggest that a static stretch a useful thing but you know it. Yeah, that’s a whole separate conversation probably but yeah and it’s really sort of similarly to to Laurel. My feeling is like let me expand my toolbox but I’m not going to throw anything away. You know we we tend to like put the 1 thing down to pick up a new thing. But.
Caitlin
There’s a place. Yeah.
Sarah
It’s it’s more useful you become more useful and you know people’s scenarios become less intimidating when you have a broad toolbox because in that so situation. The 1 thing you tried it didn’t work. Okay, cool. Let’s come over here and try this other thing. But you know what we did. We did red cord last time and it didn’t seem like it was really the right thing for you I’m going to put you on the reformer today you know or we’re going to just work on some mobilization techniques or I’m going to do a whole bunch of manual work or whatever right? So the ability to have a few different skills as a pt specifically is is really just sort of ah a requirement. Um. I I do think and I do so I don’t see it as much but it’s definitely true that there are some Pts where the really all they do is manual work. They don’t do any sort of like exercise or they don’t give people you know exercises to do for homework or any of that kind of thing and. My big feeling with with any any sort of Rehab is that just you know passive treatment alone is never going to cut it. There has to be an active component. The person has to be moving and not just an active component. But I’m I’m sort of believing more and more just based on things that I’m seeing in my own. work and in the the work that I do with patients that there has to be you know strength component. It can’t just be like body weight. Whatever you know it just it’s not enough a lot of the time and so you know I could keep talking but but I’ll stop.
Caitlin
No I agree. Yeah no thank you for sharing that too about um your experience with red cord because I think sometimes those those very specific methodologies or I’ve I’ve seen it in like you said in in manual therapy and in kind of the continuing Ed course world where it kind of sends you down this path of just learning. All the ways to use your hands on every part of the body and I think some people can get so I don’t know so reliant on that or feel like like that’s that’s like the the place to spend the most time in ah in a session and just kind of eat up all the time with that where there’s no room for. Kind of getting people up and on their feet and moving and exercising and um and and then taking on tools that they can use to manage their symptoms on their own which they really can’t do going to our manual therapy session once a week. Um, so yeah I I agree that there’s there’s.
Sarah
Um, pregnant. Um.
Caitlin
Ah, some of it comes from like very specific systems or maybe continuing Ed course um models that send people down these kind of narrow paths at times and also create a us versus them mentality. Um.
Sarah
Um, yeah, yeah.
Laurel
Now 40
Caitlin
In those courses I’ve taken a couple of continuing Ed courses like that where they kind of talk shit about other treatment methods you know and um and always leaves them with a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth but I can see it I can see it definitely in a clinical setting. How people go super down the hole of being reliant on just a small set of tools and um, yeah, yeah and I agree I like the big Toolbox and I also think it helps to work with different people that have been exposed to different things like I mean. People come in to see me who are who have like very robust you know, kind of athletic backgrounds and like hard training and you know they they can they push hard even if there’s a little pain and that doesn’t bother them and then there are other people who like a little bit of pain and they’re just scared to move at all and there’s a whole spectrum and some people have been exposed to hands-on treatment in the past and some people haven’t some people get massages a lot and some people have like never had anyone really put their hands on them for manual therapy and so to be able to I think kind of bridge all of those. Differences in people’s life experiences and their expectations for physical therapy and on and on it’s like so important to be able to shift gears and be like I think for this person today this is going to be something that feels maybe a little safer more familiar. They’ve had some exposure to this. Let’s go that route as a way in.
Sarah
Yeah.
Caitlin
When they’re in acute pain. You know, um, really helpful.
Laurel
Yeah, and it this this is this is what I meant really when I said like being able to help different types of learners. Um I wasn’t talking about like you know there’s like this belief that there’s visual and kinesthetic and whatever your learners so I was talking about like different people really who like to learn. In different ways and so for me, it’s like different people who want to engage in movement in different ways like I’ve got some 1 on 1 strength clients and.
Caitlin
Um, yeah.
Laurel
They have completely different interests like they want to get strong but they want to get strong in very different ways. 1 of them is a little bit more interested in the athletic side of strength and the other one is not and so um, it’s important to be able to toggle back and forth between ways of doing things approaches modalities. Even if possible so that you can actually help people because of how they’re different and and what they’re you know more comfortable with or used to or more interested in. It sounds very similar to.
Sarah
Yeah, and I would say even.
Laurel
To be like a multidisciplinary movement teacher. You can also feel like being a multidisciplinary pt.
Sarah
Yeah, and I think as well. One of the things that that I definitely worked on in the beginning is a little bit easier now just because I’ve you know done this job for a little bit longer but you also um, you have to you have to be able to read a person and. Ah, not just that the the Pts that I see who are ah less successful or or maybe practice in a way that I that I don’t like for example are the ones that just kind of steamroll right over the person in front of them because they’re just like oh it’s ah it’s an elbow Epiconolitis I’m like no this is a person with an elbow. So so instead of your blanket treatment for all elbow you know issues. That’s just the same across the board. How about you pay attention to like is this person afraid of their pain is this person afraid of movement is this person super deconditioned. Um, what does this mean to them for their life and and then with all of that information. What’s the best you know approach that I can take you know I’ve I’ve had people where they’ve they’ve gone to so many different practitioners and they’ve been screwed up by so many different people but that they get to me. And and it’s like their neck which is a very tender kind of part of the body anyway and I’m like okay I have to approach this person like they are a terrified dog at the humane society cowering in a corner I can’t come in here and just bulldoze right over them I have to build trust with this person. You know things like that. So understanding how that person’s desires or previous experiences or life experience with movement is going to impact what you can do and then how do you?? How do you?? Um. Don’t want to say change yourself like you want to be yourself, but there’s definitely people that I work with where I go very kind of calm quiet voice and you know just it’s all about listening to them and that kind of stuff and I have my people that I’m like yo hi 5 Let’s do this, you know because that’s what they respond to and those are both things that are part of my personality sort of. But you know I don’t you know, high 5 a lot of people but you know to be able to to draw on all of the facets of your own character and use that as ah as a pt but also as a teacher when you’re working privately with people I mean. You know I mean I remember I had a a student I worked with who had been assaulted in the very apartment where where we were seeing or I was seeing her as a yoga teacher and and sometimes you know that that takes precedent over like well I really want them to work on their you know bridge form or something you know like. The ability to to be This is a terrible pun but flexible in the way that you the way that you work with people and the times when I when I get frustrated a lot of the time I’m like oh I’m just I don’t know I don’t know what’s going on here exactly I don’t. Totally feel like I understand it and so I’m just like hammering away at it with my same hammer because I’m like well surely this is the correct hammer but and then it’s not you know so those are the situations. Those are the situations when I refer out because I’m like okay I for whatever reason cannot clearly figure out what’s going on here and sometimes it’s okay, you need to go see a pelvic floor physical therapist because we cannot. You can’t engage through the quality abdominal muscles. Without it hurting your pelvic floor. There’s something going on you need internal work most likely that’s not something that I do or I all send people to you know we have a massage therapist on staff I have a client that I used to work with who now only goes and gets massages and it was what what became clear to me was that. What she was experiencing as pain in her body was had ah ah a hugely overriding psychological component. So it didn’t matter that we were working on her strength or we were doing foam rolling or whatever it. It never got better and she we actually I talked with her about going to other kinds of therapy and she started working with a somatic. Um, therapist as well as getting massaged and I was like this is just a question like I Just don’t do the things that this person needs. You know you know I could either keep taking their money and feeling like kind of a huckster is that a word. Um or I could send them to somebody who can really help them.
Caitlin
Cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing that? um I think we should get into talking about some cognitive biases. So cognitive bias ah a decision making process it occurs mostly below our level of conscious awareness right? So these are like things that are kind of ingrained in our mental atmosphere in our experience that influence various conclusions that we draw. From certain situations or choices that we make it’s this idea that as individuals we create our own subjective reality and I think this plays into our decision making process when when we um, keep working with someone. With our own skill sets and when we refer someone out. Um, but I also and I wanted to not butd but and I wanted to talk to you both about cognitive biases because I feel like at least Laurel. Um, we’ve had some conversations about kind of some of the facets. Of cognitive bias and um and I know Sarah I’m sure you’ve kind of learned in school and pt school and come across this a little bit in clinical settings and um and I think it’s also just relevant to expanding our scope when we when we do go and take those continuing ed courses or we do start to become drawn to that shiny object and. And kind of use that thing to the extent that it’s it’s all we’re seeing um that’s where these these kind of um, below conscious awareness thought processes and decisions come into play so I want to start with confirmation bias I think this is really prevalent in our. Society in our kind of political atmosphere in social media and this is our tendency to search for or interpret or favor recall information in a way that confirms or supports our prior Beliefs and values. Um. This also includes actively avoiding information that contradicts my chosen narrative. I Wanted to ask you both how you feel like that shows up in your populations or your practices and also I mean we could speak a little bit about just kind of society in general um in these these echo chambers or whatever that we we tend to fall into where um. We’re just kind of only seeking the information that confirms what we already think and believe in no and possibly actively avoiding or maybe subconsciously we’re avoiding um, anything that contradicts our beliefs.
Laurel
Um, or the algorithm is forcing us to avoid it.
Caitlin
Exactly there’s that too right right? So this is this is super prevalent in our you know what we see in the news. What we read what we the information that we consume in the media. Our social media. Absolutely.
Laurel
Yeah I definitely have cognitive bias and I think what I want to start off by saying like the ultimate cognitive bias is thinking that you don’t have cognitive bias is that like is that like the meta donning krueger. It’s like.
Caitlin
Um, okay, yes, it is right right? right.
Sarah
Um, yes.
Laurel
Du dunning Kgerger is feeling that you are not ah prone to dunning kruger. Um, yeah I I definitely suffer from confirmation Bias Ah I do every day I mean I’m sure I do every day like I always want to see that I’m right again I don’t want to see I don’t want to see that I’m wrong. So I’m just going to look the other way. Ah so that I can look toward where I’m right now. Um I I definitely have gotten more comfortable with discovering that I’m wrong and my you know my first.
Sarah
Um, that’s just being That’s just being a person. Um.
Laurel
You know in like more comfortable and not like totally comfortable but like more comfortable recognizing via like various ways of understanding it probably from like reading something from a trusted source or whatever that like oh what I’ve been saying has actually been wrong but I remember when I was a newer teacher. It was like too much information I was like La La La La La La La You know I’m not even going to listen to that because I can’t take it in and it like what it. How is it going to help me teach to feel like I’m wrong about everything all the time. So um, and and that’s probably what I’m doing right now too right is like I’m just kind of ah. Trying to do the best that I can without overwhelming myself with trying to be like perfect. But now when I encounter information that leads me to believe that like actually I’m not quite understanding this fully or I’m going about this maybe the wrong way or like it’s not.. It’s not evidence based or whatever it is is like I actually become really. Much more curious about it and I immediately want to know as much about like this other side as I can I Also want to know as much about the source of the information as I can and then I look for other sources and and it’s kind of like that and like I I find that actually the best growth I’ve made as a teacher. Has been in discovering that Maybe what my approach has been whatever it was wasn’t quite as evidence based or it was kind of based on really fluffy, um, evidence that my best growth as a teacher has come out of me actually digging into that. And changing how I teach based on this new information that I’ve gotten. In fact I would say that is responsible that that willingness as painful as it can be in the beginning is responsible for what I feel like so far as becoming a really fulfilling successful career as a movement teacher. Um, the opposite of that is boredom honestly because when you’re doing something that isn’t really working I mean it might be working for some but it’s not working always and you’re constantly confused as to why can become very frustrating and ultimately for me. It shows up as feeling kind of boring because I don’t really feel like I’m getting anywhere with it I hope hopefully that was a somewhat coherent answer to the question. Ah, yeah, yeah.
Caitlin
Me. Absolutely and I want to say for listeners who don’t know what the dunning Kruger effect is it’s It’s some so my definition that I have in front of me is when a person’s lack of knowledge and skills in a certain area cause them to overestimate their own competence. So. It’s like kind of what I think a lot of people experience when they start to learn something in depth is in the beginning they think they have a lot of understanding and can tell somebody about it at a party and I know all about this topic and and then the more you start to learn the more you realize is like oh I don’t. I Actually don’t know anything about this topic that like that early stage of learning where you don’t know enough to real to know that you don’t know anything like you.
Laurel
Yeah, yeah.
Laurel
Right? The real there you you know you’ve arrived. You know you have um this is a joke but you know you’ve arrived like that you actually know something when you’re at a party and people know you know about it and they want you to tell you they want you to tell them about it and you’re like come on I don’t want what. Party? Dude it’s like talk about the shit here this not about Spain man. They’re doing great.
Sarah
I’m not here to show off if.
Caitlin
Like ah.
Laurel
World Cup World cups.
Caitlin
Um, ah yeah right? I know it’s topical. I don’t know when this episode will come out. But yeah, um, no, that’s a I like that.
Sarah
I remember um, yeah I remember 1 time I was I was talking to Jules Mitchell about who knows what we were talking about but she was I think it was um, like a massage class that she was taking and it was ah. And this always sort of stuck out for me because I was like oh this is this is exactly how we should all respond to to our own confirmation biases and she volunteered it was like early on in the class and she volunteered to go up to the front and like demonstrate something and the teachers said to her something like well. But you’re you’re not going to get You’re not going to do very well with this because you don’t you don’t really know what you’re doing something like that and she was like well yeah, no I want to get it wrong because how that’s how I’m going to learn it. You know like how am I going to get better at it if I if I don’t get it wrong and I find that so true, the things and I’m sure Caitlin this is true for you as well. The things that I got wrong in pt school I never have gotten wrong again like ask me how to spell xyphoid process. You know so but it it is hard. You know we live in a such a, you know, if you’re on social media. It’s such a um Echo Chamber and you know people are so I’m not talking about cancel culture right now but people are so quick to tell you that you’re wrong as we all know and but sometimes you are wrong and. You know I think it takes a certain broader Scoba a step back and a kind of macro to be like well what’s more useful, me being right on the internet or me actually learning something and becoming a better practitioner because of it. Um, one of the examples is ah. In our podcast Lauren and I did an episode about breathing and I very confidently said that nose breathing and mouth breathing were the same and that you should just breathe and then ah turns out that’s not true and I I went and educated myself and I actually did an entire second episode about nose breathing because it’s actually kind of fascinating and brilliant and now I’m a genius about nose breathing. So ask me anything I know. I know all the things about nose breathing. Yeah I read the book and I know everything.
Caitlin
Yeah, yeah, I actually I just recently read that too. Well I listened to the first part of your episode. Well actually Sarah to be honest I listened to the first part of that episode and I was like oh I just read that book I don’t have to listen to this episode I know everything about that like. Ah, so I thought process that but I read that nester book I read it late like you did too like like for years people have been telling me read this book and I was like oh yeah, get to that eventually and I read it and then I went home for labor day weekend and my father is a swimmer so like this was interesting too because swimming is a whole different world like you have to breathe differently with swimming. So. Like then I got into all these discussions with my dad about this book I was reading and then he started reading it and we were talking about it and he was talking about like training you know training in various ways with breath patterns for swimming and what that does and I was like and I kind of. Stops and I was like well this book it maybe has like 1 sentence about swimming but there’s really nothing there and I I was like well I don’t know if any of this applies actually to swimming because that’s so then I was like well I don’t know.
Laurel
Um, right? Well wolf or related related related to this topic of ah confirmation bias and the topic of Nestor’s book on breathing. I just today saw a post from one of my favorite pain science educators Paul Ingraham I don’t know if I’m saying his last name right right? But he’s painscience.com and he is ah kind of ah he’s kind of making the argument that nose breathing doesn’t really matter that much and I’m like oh I can’t wait to hear what he has to say and he. In the comments in the post he says I’m going to read this nester book because I’ve heard you know people are you know extolling. It’s genius, but then also other people who you know ah probably have some Ph H D behind their name are are critiquing it and so like now I literally just before this interview bought the nester book. And oh shit I forgot to use our um, affiliate code. Damn ok so I bought because we make like ¢2 for every nester book. We um so so I bought the book. and and I’m like going to go back and listen to Sarah’s episode and I’m going to read the book and then I’m going to read Paul’s article and I’m like oh my god this is awesome because now I get all of these competing ideas and that’s really also how you make you learn by getting it wrong? Yes, but you also learn by hearing conflicting viewpoints. It’s like it’s again, it’s like it’s not just one idea it’s multiple ideas together. It’s not just one movement modality. It’s multiple together. It’s not just one way of treating patients. It’s multiple together. We actually need to have a conversation in order to really fully understand. We can’t just.
Sarah
Definitely.
Laurel
Have an idea and then evangelize that and nobody learns anything from that nobody.
Sarah
Yeah, well like I posted about my ankle sprain and what I was doing for it and then I got in a small I wouldn’t call it an argument because he’s actually a friend of mine and he was one of my teachers. But. Ah, somebody commented about how Ibuprofen is now now like not indicated because it slows down the prostaglandin and thedadada and you know I did so it’s that thing where initially I was like fuck I got it wrong on the internet and then I was like wait a minute.
Caitlin
Ah, the voice in all of our heads right there when you see that comment and.
Sarah
You know it’s just a bubble that lives above my head like all day I just walk around with his bubble over my head but the argument that I start to make back to him you know to your point Laurel that it’s a conversation. It’s not a right or wrong. The argument I started to make back was like well then if if Ibuprofen is the 1 medicine that actually helps me decrease my pain so I can sleep. But you’re telling me not to take it. What am I what now? what? So and and like sure maybe it slows down the healing process in those in initial phases and maybe that’s really important if you’re an athlete and you’re trying to like you know so like carve out ah a short healing process so you can get back to whatever sport you’re playing. But for you know, shmo like me I don’t care if it means another week of of healing because in that first week it really freaking hurt and I needed to get out of pain and his argument was what about I seetaminopen and I was like it doesn’t work for Me. So. You know it’s It’s this idea that like oh well, the research says this and then everyone must but do that and but but to your point Laurel and and I think to to to everybody that I respect in the movement world in the Pt world. They’re all able to embrace. It’s the the what is it? That’s the F Scott Fitzgerald About being able to hold opposing ideas in your head at the same time you know so being able to hold these completely. Ah different perspectives in your head at the same time and just recognize that like it’s it’s person to person specific right? It’s situation specific. There’s context and. Um, that’s all I have to say about that.
Laurel
And also you don’t change. People’s minds by telling them. They’re wrong because of confirmation bias. Yeah, and so there’s a better way in actually a lot of the times.
Sarah
Ah, right people double down. No.
Caitlin
Yeah, yeah, Availability Bias is information at front of mind the most recent information or highest frequency of information one has encountered. It’s easily recalled. So So therefore it’s like the most important to consider right now I think of this with regards to I just attended a weekend continuing Ed course on blank topic and now it is all I see all I care about all I use for treatment. Um I think this shows up In. Any kind of um, coaching training teaching clinical world when we encounter a whole bunch of new information and it’s kind of like the main thing we’re thinking about for a while.
Laurel
Yeah, also Sarah I think Sarah you made a point too about like everybody worrying about yoga injuries when like all we’re seeing our yoga students and so we feel like yoga is so injurious because that’s all we see but like when you look at the you look at the. The bigger picture. It’s actually not any more. It’s not any more injurious really than any other kind of exercise. In fact, it’s probably less so because there’s no impact like.
Caitlin
Yeah, well,, That’s a that’s an interesting example. That’s a great example of of a bail of Availability Bias too is like how our niche populations kind of teach us to See. Ah. Kind of a greater ratio of certain things than you would see out in like the whole general population. Um, yeah.
Laurel
You know.
Sarah
But I definitely do that. Not it. It doesn’t even have to be like a con ed course I could learn some some like fun new version of a bridge or something and you better believe that every single one of my patients that week is doing that exercise I think suddenly everybody needs it. You know.
Laurel
Um, what do you do. Well I think that’s also a way that we learn to like that’s one of my learning strategies. Definitely like if I really want to retain information that I learned in a weekend workshop I better start applying it immediately.
Sarah
Um, yeah, yes.
Caitlin
Are using it. Yeah yeah, So yeah, and these aren’t all bad. They just I mean I and I think it’s important to think of these as not not negative, not bad, not like oh that’s horrible if I’m doing that but it’s like it just is this happens to all of us these these things arise these. Biases arise and um, and and there you they are useful in some way to keep us kind of focused and grounded or on a certain path or um, going deeper into information that is valuable and is important So Absolutely use. It. Get some new information, use it or you lose it right? Um I’m just going to keep going with a couple more sunken costs Sunken cost bias tendency to follow through on an endeavor having invested time effort or money whether or not the current costs outweigh the benefits.
Sarah
Ninety Day fiance have you guys never watched that show you know? Oh no, no, no, no, no oh yeah, no, that’s um.
Laurel
I thought it’s talking about somebody. I thought you were like talking about a real person in your life Sarah like I never heard about that one.
Caitlin
No I heard about it I.
Sarah
Yeah I briefly watched a few episodes and then I couldn’t anymore because my heart belongs to Love Island the you k the version is spectacular but um, but in in ninety day fiancee very often. It’s someone from from a either United States Who is going to get married to somebody in another country and ah I Just remember this one episode where there was a guy who was talking to his friend about how he was flying to you know, whatever country and the friend like the friend had the look on the face where you’re like he’s like this is a. Terrible idea This is you don’t know this person so he started to say like you know it seems like you don’t really know her very well and the the potential fiance’s response was like well I’ve already sent her $25000 So you know I have to keep going and I was like that’s that’s not how that works. But yeah, you can just.
Laurel
Oh wow no oh but a hundred percent merit moat like not most oh gosh what a pessimistic view but like all so many marriages are.
Caitlin
Ah, okay, yep.
Sarah
Ah, you couldn’t a hundred percent just stop.
Laurel
Barely surviving on sunken cost because of how much money people spend. This is my like you know, absolutely ignorant opinion based on nothing but like from my viewpoint some people spend so much money on their weddings and then. They almost. It’s like they get married for the wedding and then the actual marriage begins and I feel like it’s the sunken cost of having spent so much on that wedding that might keep them together for longer than they should be. You know does that is that like a super pessimistic thing to say. It’s a it’s a little dark. It’s a little dark. Yeah so sunken cost I I I’m trying to think of like when I have delayed my exit due to a feeling that I should oh ok, here’s one This is not movements. Related but I got really expensive headshots toward the end of my acting career and I definitely went on a few more auditions than I really needed to because I was pretty much done being an actor but I was like but I spend all that money on the headshots. So That’s an that’s my example.
Sarah
Well, there’s probably people who who are yoga teachers who went to their expensive yoga teacher training and maybe so you know very quickly in the in the process of the actual reality of being a yoga teacher which is a lot less rainbows and unicorns than people seem to think. Ah, realized that this is not for them perhaps but they’re but then they’re like well but I spent $5000 on this training or whatever you know.
Laurel
Yeah, or it could also be that the teacher training actually made zero mention of the fact that being a professional yoga teacher is basically going to require most yoga teachers to live at the poverty line. So that’s a harsh reality to have to face. You could have done your own research I suppose but I do think that for teacher trainings going forward and I mean I think it’s especially the case for yoga teachers I don’t know what it’s like for group fitness teachers. But if you’re not teaching privates like you’re going to need to probably do some other things. And I don’t think that teacher trainings were super transparent about that in the beginning. But maybe they are now.
Caitlin
Yeah I don’t I don’t know what they’re doing now I Yeah I cut ties with that quite a while ago but I I also do think I kind of speaking of teacher trainings too and teaching and being a yoga teacher I think of like the. Paying your dues to get in and get your classes and be able to lead teacher trainings or in any industry right? in any industry. It’s not just literal money spent upfront. But I mean it is money it is It is loss of income If you’re having to work into an industry or into a job where you’re. Doing it for free right? educational hour that could be a whole ok clinical education things like that is ah a whole other topic but you know like like inter level pay um as a way in or working for free or working for very little money.
Laurel
You define me I think this is super super relevant.
Caitlin
And you spend years kind of getting your foot in the door and then kind of working your way up to a place where you have some sort of like status or income that is is somewhat close to like industry standard or reasonable for your living costs and you get so tightly enmeshed in the culture. And the community and the company or whatever it is that you’ve been working for that. It feels really hard to leave that when it would be probably a better wiser choice to to cut ties and go and do something else and so I see people hang around a lot longer.
Laurel
I Listen to the spirituality I listen to the spirituality podcast and they talk a lot about Cult tactics and Cult dynamics and not to say that like requiring people to work for free for your yoga studio means that you’re a cult. Not at all. But that is one of the tactics employed by Cult leaders which is to basically require so much from the people in the cult. The victims of the cult that they are then almost incapable of leaving and I don’t know. If this is a sunk cost fallacy. It’s more abusive than just a you know a cognitive bias but there is a connection there to this idea that I’ve committed so much and even though this is not working for me anymore. I can’t leave because of how much I’ve committed.
01:10:06.60
Caitlin
Yeah, yeah, or I refuse to see as a little confirmation bias in it too because like I refuse to see the downside here I can I’m kind of forcing myself to only see the things that. Kind of hold me up in this position. Um, because I refuse to see all the negatives and reasons. Um all the cons and reasons why I really should cut ties and go.
Laurel
For sure yet. Yeah, certain cognitive biases probably support others.
Sarah
Um, no.
Caitlin
um um I think this is something we’ve kind of touched on a little bit here with this this similar conversation. But the appeal to authority or the um, that. Trying to conform to the opinion of a perceived authority or authoritative group. So a charismatic figure cult cult leader as you said Laurel um, social media influencers certain podcast hosts in the bro bro science genre but things like that. Um, who is it that said bro science was that you Sarah or was that our friend denine was that that somebody recently was talking about bro science or coined it bro science ortho bros. Yeah yeah, um, but yeah, yeah, so so these kind of like.
Sarah
Um, yeah, ah I was talking about I mean yeah I was mentioning ortho Bros But yeah bro science.
Laurel
Orthobra.
Sarah
Proscience is definitely a thing.
Caitlin
Authoritative or charismatic type figures that um, you know we get information from and then start kind of repeating that information or sharing that information with others and it becomes this convoluted game of of telephone right? where we’re just kind of taking taking it as word from some other person that. We trust for some reason and then um, relying that information again and again to other people. Um.
Sarah
That’s that’s the that’s the game of telephone that most yoga teacher trainings teach people to do I mean certainly when I first became a yoga teacher. There was no ah there was no sense of like oh well. You know you’ll figure out your own ways to say things you know it. It was very sort of like here’s this phrase that seems to work I’m just going to wholesale take it and use it to my students and then also like here’s this thing I heard from my yoga teacher and. I Have a lot of respect for my yoga teacher and I’ve learned a lot of things for them. So it must be true therefore I am also going to say that inversions are not good to do while you’re menstruating or you know something like sort of across the board like that a big broad statement. Um, and and I I certainly didn’t. Questioning The teacher was not encouraged right? So It’s sort of you’re you’re set up to be in this world where the person is sort of speaking these sort of semi-seudo-ciency feeling things that sound like. Make sense I mean surely if I did a Handstand while I had my period. It would start coming out of my ears right? because that’s just science so you know and and you don’t know any better right? I didn’t know anything about the body when I became a yoga teacher. So I Just sort of was like yep to to everything you know, relax your butt when you’re doing a backbend. You know? and and um it it takes a lot to Untangle because it’s It’s such a you know it just is like perpetrated on and on and on and on one of my favorite things I ever heard in a class I think I’ve said this on on our podcast world. But um I was taking a bar class because um I don’t know why? Ah. Every now and then I would take a bar class and then’ be like that’s right I hate bar and then I would forget for like a year and then I’d take another one and be like that’s right I hate I Hate bar class. But um, the the teacher said that this kind of work. The the kind of exercise that happened in bar class burned the fat that’s on the inside of your body and I was like. But are you talking about all of my fat is on the inside of my body I mean as far as I know so it just it was one of those things that I was like this person clearly heard this and just repeated it without really thinking about what it sound like what it meant. And what it sounded like coming out. You know, um, right and just kind of like yeah yeah.
Caitlin
Yeah, right, right? right? or maybe heard something different and that was what became their interpretation of what that statement was.
Laurel
It’s interesting. I’m thinking about what I’ve learned from talking to my husband who’s ah, a professor of english education and so he has been steeped in learning theory for a while in terms of like pedagogical. Theory right? and teaching children and he pointed me to some authors and I kind of dabbled in in 1 person’s book about the power of the apprenticeship model and terms of a learning model right? It’s it’s a really. Wonderful way to learn which is to follow someone around who has been doing it for much longer and is an expert and to really literally just in many ways. Just do what they do um to copy them so to speak. But that model is not just about copying of course right? It’s also about then going and trying it and questioning it and looking at it from different angles and maybe also following more than 1 person right? maybe following somebody who does it a completely different way and and. Holding space for the fact that there’s multiple different ways of doing things and that 1 way might work better than another and so there has to be again this um, comparative nature at play where it’s not just you do what I do and say what I say and. Approach this how I approach is because it’s the right way because I’m right because I’m the teacher guru. Whatever but you take and learn what I do because this is what works in my practice or in my teaching and now you try it out for yourself and see how it works and also I want you to read these books and and and learn about this because this is gonna. Give you a little bit different perspective and maybe even a contradictory perspective so that you can take in all of these multiple different ways of doing things but at the same time too. It’s really difficult in the beginning to learn something new when you’re being given all of these different ways of doing something There’s a lot of value actually in just learning 1 thing. Really really? well. So maybe it’s also not that in the beginning we need to give people a bunch of contradictory things to think about in ways of doing things because that’s too much information. But what’s really important I think is to simultaneously be giving them this one tool and to show them one way to do it well but to be fostering an attitude or fostering a mindset of curiosity a kind of a soft touch with the thing not as Zealots not a kind of evangelizing sort of um us versus them mentality and so I think that the really good teachers and I’ll speak to just. Like movement teachers out there who train teachers they show trainees what to do they show trainees how to do it and they don’t show trainees too much because that’s not really actually very helpful but at the same time that they’re showing them how to do the thing. They’re not at the same time saying that this is the best way or this is the only way and they’re answering. They’re really fielding and answering questions in a way that makes space for this idea that like this is not the only way and also they make space for students to be able to share their experiences as equals in the process of creating the learning right instead of I and the teacher and you must. You are the empty vessel and I will fill you with my knowledge. It’s like no, we are all in this together. We’re creating this experience together. We’re learning from each other and I’m learning from you that yeah the teacher is learning from the students as much as the students are learning from the teacher and the students are learning from the students as well right? So I think it’s more about creating an attitude um in the beginning of of open mindedness and a willingness to to try different ways and and to look at different perspectives.
Sarah
There’s a um, there’s a yoga school not school studio something. Ah, let me start that thought again I don’t know if it’s if it’s nationwide but there’s a Yoga studio that’s all over the place here in l la and ah their teacher training they quite literally give people a script and they’re like you are just going to memorize this for to teach class and I remember at first when I heard that I was like well that’s that’s terrible. That’s well and now I’m like maybe it’s not terrible. Because especially in the beginning it is overwhelming. It’s so much new information and you know this idea that you would be able to both take in the information to Laurel’s point and then also like question it and put it give it like context and have a critical answer to you know is is just impossible. So and I’m sort of I’ve sort of swung in the opposite direction like maybe. You know for your 200 hour that’s fine because it also then really clearly delineates to you what you know and what you don’t know because you memorized it. You know there’s no, it’s very cut and dry.
Caitlin
Right.
Laurel
Um, yeah.
Caitlin
Yeah, um I Want to swing back just just to kind of close and and circle back for a second to to our scope of practice discussion. Our our discussion about referring out. Um going back to this what we mentioned before the dunning Krueger effect. When your lack of knowledge makes you overestimate your competence. The flip side of that is imposter syndrome which is when someone who’s very smart and capable and skilled underestimates their abilities and I think that in in both of these instances. Waters could get a bit muddy in terms of knowing. Um when to refer out and um so I just wanted to see if either of you had anything to add in terms of like those two sides of the coin overestimating versus underestimating your abilities and um and if that has come into play for you in ah. In your practices at times.
Sarah
1 of the things one of the things that I see with the group the quantum leap community the mentorship group that I run is that um and it may be a question of the kind of people who sign up for wanting to learn more so that they can work with people who. Have pain or have an injury or something like that is that they do not seem to ah have an inflated sense of their own skill and if anything they they seem to tend to be a little more sort of imposter syndromey. But I think that may be ineffective the kind of people who think they don’t know enough. Are maybe the ones who are signing up to learn more. You know? yeah.
Caitlin
Yeah, absolutely yeah yeah, yeah, yes, um, let’s finish with just a little bit of a personal note I Just like to end with this because it’s fun. Um, what kind of things are you doing. That are just for you may or may not relate to your professional practices. Um I like to end with this because I think we get so caught up in our you know like our. Learning and everything that that we’re interested in in our professional work and our patients or our clients and I think it’s really important to have things that we do that are just kind of like for us. Um and not for the the populations that we serve. So. Let’s end with each of you a little something about um, it could be totally silly or whatever. What are you into that has like nothing to do with like learning learning and continuing education to serve your populations. Okay.
Laurel
Well mine, kind of does have to do with learning because I just booked it I just booked a flight to a lovely warm, beautiful destination with Sarah to ah to record some podcast episodes. We’re doing a podcast retreat. Um, but it was it was sort of. Like this it was this like this random idea I had from listening to a podcast where these 2 women had done that thing in the car like two days ago and like I always do I immediately texted Sarah I was like we should do a podcast retreat and like she totally like she totally was like yes, let’s do it and then she started researching places like Sarah serious. And I was like I’m serious too and so then we both like ah we suddenly find ourself with tickets to Mexico today and and then I did the same thing happened kind of the same thing happened with a friend in Chicago just texted me yesterday and was like you know is my my his wife is my good friend from early days of New York city and was like laris is having her fortieth birthday party I know you probably can’t get away for the weekend but it’s happening at these week this weekend and I I was like I just sort of floated it by my husband because we have a you know we have a daughter a young daughter and so it’d be like meaning he would be out alone for the weekend with her I was like hey. What do you think and he’s like he immediately like went online and like found a ticket for me. It’s like oh it’s it’s really cheap. You should go and I was like oh my god amazing so I’m in Alabama and I don’t have a ton of friends here. But now I have just like 2 great friend hangouts to look forward to in early Twenty Twenty three so it’s just for me.
Sarah
Yeah.
Caitlin
Ah.
Laurel
And I’m super excited to see my buddies So there’s that.
Caitlin
That’s great. Yes I Love it.
Sarah
Also I am also, as one of the buddies I’m also very excited I think I think it definitely I travel a lot um or well I have traveled a lot I’m traveling more now after the pandemic and after you know going through treatment for cancer and everything and and I it’s something that I.
Caitlin
Um.
Sarah
Autumn like literally you could be like hey do you want to go to and before you even get to the where that is I’m like yes because it’s it’s something that I’ve always always loved. Um so I do think I was I overwhelmed Laurel a little bit because I was instantly like oh I found this place on Airbnb and there’s a. And here’s a schedule for the water taxi and what time you’re cycle. Are you goingnna do an over night response. She was like okay I to go to bed. But so let’s talk about this tomorrow. But so yeah and I have I have that trip coming up with my buddy. We’re gonna do some whale watching I’m very excited I’m actually going to Alaska in january.
Laurel
Um.
Caitlin
Wow.
Laurel
But yeah.
Caitlin
Um, ah, nice.
Sarah
Ah, to watch the to oroa barreis which I don’t like being cold. So I I agreed to this because I’m I’m doing it with my friend that I travel with a lot and she really wanted to and like you know how do you say? no to that? Um, but on ah on a more of a sort of Dayto day week to week as Laurel well knows and probably you know as well Caitlin I am.
Caitlin
Another.
Laurel
Ah.
Sarah
Obsessed with my motorcycle and I can’t ride it at the moment because I screwed myself up on it which is very um ah I was going to say humiliating but it’s not really humiliating. It’s that here’s okay, here’s the thing that I love about the motorcycle that that is not obvious and it wasn’t obvious to me.
Caitlin
I Love that.
Sarah
Before I started doing it but mostly what people say when I tell them that I ride a motorcycle is they’re like oh you must be some like an adrenaline junkie or something you like going really fast and I do like going fast. It’s true, but what it actually is is probably the hardest physical activity that I’ve ever tried to learn. And having from 0 in in my life. It is very physically demanding and not just in a you know the bike is very heavy. It’s not just in that way. But the ways the inputs that you make the the throttle and the clutch and all that there’s such a subtlety to it that you know to learn that it it takes hours and hour hours and hour hours and hours of repetition. So it’s this. It’s a skill that I’m learning that has nothing to do with anything that I do for work and the other thing that I love about it is um for me at least the experience of it is that the faster I go the quieter it gets in my head because you don’t have room to be thinking about.
Laurel
Boom.
Caitlin
Me.
Sarah
Anything else because you have to be just so completely present with what’s going on. Otherwise you’re going to have an accident right? or you might so for me, it’s actually an incredibly centering and and almost meditative thing when I get to do it and that’s one of the things that I love about it as well.
Caitlin
Um, yeah, right.
Sarah
And also you get to like wear full jackets and like walk around and my bike is beautiful I love it so much. Um, so yeah, that’s that’s what my current obsession.
Caitlin
Um, um oh yeah, like a whole look a whole swagger. Yeah, ah I love it. Thank you for sharing that? um and I will be.
Laurel
Um.
Sarah
Yeah.
Caitlin
Following that journey. So I’ve seen a few of your social media posts about the motorcycle. It’s exciting. Ah that.
Laurel
I Always comment I’m always in the comments section like telling her to slow down and and be careful and I’m like um yeah.
Caitlin
Be safe on your bike. Yeah, all right? Um I think for both of you. How people can reach. You is really simple I appreciate that like right your social media handles are your names sarahort.
Sarah
Um, so funny.
Sarah
Yeah, mine is sorry. Mine is Sarah Cort DPT
Caitlin
Laurel Beversdorf yeah Sarah Cort DPT Laurel Beversdorf
Laurel
Mine is um, Laurel Beaver darf but ah it not as straightforward as you would think it’s spelled b e v e r s be asked off ah not like the beaver ah the animal that builds the dams. Okay there there you go.
Caitlin
Um, yeah, yes.
Sarah
Um.
Caitlin
All right? Um, web site’s Laurel be reserve god.com Sarah is it Sarah court dvt.com you make it so easy and your movement logic to tutorials are on your movement logic.
Sarah
Um, Sarah Cortt DPT yep had learned.
Laurel
Yeah.
Caitlin
Website and you talk about them on your movement logic podcast and it’s movementlogic.com tutorials movielogic tutorials.com all right logic tutorials. Awesome! Well.
Sarah
Tutorial look out.
Laurel
Um, to to movement logic movement logic tutorials.com
Sarah
And with logic. Um, and on Instagram at movement logic tutorials.
Caitlin
I will be continuing to listen to your movement logic podcast because I love it and such great information and I really appreciate both of you coming on to my podcast and I love that we were able to all 3 get together at the same time.
Sarah
Um, yeah, you know? yeah.
Laurel
Yeah, it is.
Caitlin
Because that’s hard in the world these days and we made it happen and um, thank you so much for your time and for sharing such interesting and important and thought provoking information.
Laurel
Thank you Caitlin and I’m so glad you’re podcasting again.
Sarah
Um, thank you so much.
Caitlin
Yeah, yet little little little baby steps. But it’s they’re trickling out. It’s happening sort I mean it’s like yeah happens when it happens and um, we’ll keep it going at you know at irregular intervals but I am I have to say I’m impressed with the volume.
Laurel
I have another great podcast to listen to.
Sarah
As often.
Caitlin
Ah, podcasts you have both put out since it started and solo ones So like I don’t I’m always like should I trying to do I don’t know if I can do that I don’t know if I could do a so one but they’re really good.
Laurel
Ah, oh yeah, ah they’re hard.
Sarah
Fellows are so hard. Ah, they’re so hard. They’re so hard I think honestly thank you I think I think really the secret to the volume is that both Laurel and I have a habit of just being like oh well. If other people did ten. We could definitely do 20 you know like we’re just talking about this scheduling for the Nick yeah you you know what? I’m talking about. We were just talking about the schedule for season 2 and you know the timing of our podcasting vacation and and Lauren was like well maybe do we need to push it back a week and i’ like.
Caitlin
I Worked with Laurel I Understand this.
Laurel
Ah.
Caitlin
Um.
Sarah
How But we just start the following month and give ourselves a break and for she was like what it doesn’t it doesn’t come natural.
Laurel
Genius.
Caitlin
Yeah I mean it’s so telling that your idea for a vacation was a vacation so you could make a whole bunch of podcast episodes like I get it all right? Thank you both so much. All right.
Laurel
Um, guilty.
Sarah
Um, thank you darlin.
Laurel
Thank you Caitlin.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
